Skipper Wrote:Thats completely irrelevant...Up until now I have also only had sexual relationships with people my age or older, if I was suddenly to start fucking 9 year olds you would rightly label me a pedophile, but obviously we're talking about the prophet so you'll make excuses until you're blue in the face.

I would wonder if you are a rapist. Pedophilia is nothing bad (at all)... acting upon it when it is unwanted is.

Skipper Wrote:But surely it is also irrelevant if it happened hundreds of years ago, he was the prophet he lived his life supposedly according to the word of god. You and other religions tell us that Atheism can't provide a good moral code, yet the moral code your book provides is clearly subjective to the time and place (and therefore useless(or at the very least no different to my moral codes)) if pedophilia (or marrying and fucking nine year olds (as if there is a difference)) was ok then for him then why isn't it ok now for me? or you? Or anyone else?

A good moral code is not necessarily an objective moral code. If the moral code varies at all, then yes it is different from your moral code. Morality of actions depends strongly upon the actor.

Quote:If we say human morals come from humans (society) then they will change as we change and I'll agree that if he was fucking a nine year old back then, it could have been because it was seen as ok during the time and place he was living. If however we say morals truely do come from scripture (the word of god) then I don't see how fucking a nine year old in the desert a thousand years ago is any different to fucking a nine year old now in a western city. But it obviously is.

It's not a question of time, as those in arab cultures still do this. It is a question of what environment you are raised/live in.

The important thing to recognize about scripture, is that like every other word: it requires an interpreter to mean anything. As language affects the way we think, it is not such a long shot to suggest that a book entirely moral to arabs is morally abhorant to amaricans and the godamn british.

Skipper, I'll address your comments in steps:

1. If you were to suddenly start fucking a nine-year-old, then yes, that would make you a pedophile based on today's understanding of the term "pedophile." But to me, it mainly depends on what counts as "fucking" a nine-year-old.

2. The main concern here is state of mind, agreement, and situation. Putting numbers on the age of marriage and sex is unrealistic to those who want to marry young. The marriage contract, like any other contract, is validated and legitimate in Islam when both parties consent and are in a state of full comprehension of the situation. For example, supposing a 16 year old wants to marry a 17 year old, there should be no problem. Likewise, supposing an 18 year old wants to marry a 50 year old, again there should be no problem and under an Islamic state this is a legitimate practice. It is important to recognize that when we talk of any form of marriage, be it to a 10 year old or to a 80 year old, we are strictly speaking of consensual marriage with comprehension.

3. I'm 24 and I've never had a sexual encounter in my life, and I certainly wouldn't want to do this with a 10 year old girl, since that is not my mentality. Nevertheless, that was the mentality of people who lived in Arabia long time ago. Marriages at young age was the norm rather than an anomaly in certain societies. We need to realize that our times are considerably different with terms of societal life with the life of the Arabs 1,400 years ago. For those who live in the west, we're used to seeing 10 year old's playing with barbies, but this is not the case in other countries. In poor rural areas, children from the age of 6 and onwards are taught to work, to clean, and to cook. This means that by the time they reach the age of 13 getting married and having sex is considered as something normal for them because of their situation. Children would mature at a faster rate than children of today and would be taking care of their entire family at an age where kids nowadays are still running around carefree busy with fun and games.

4. The fact that it is permissible to marry a young girl does not mean that it is permissible to have intercourse with her; rather that should not be done until she is able for it. The marriage may be consummated when the girl is able for intercourse - which varies from one girl to another - and that's why no age limit can be set. I believe that this is what happened with Muhammad and Aisha (though there is still doubts about the consummation). If she was able for intercourse and if she was mature enough, then I wouldn't word it as "fucking a nine-year-old," as you did, making it sound like he did a horrible thing (without proof).

Having said that, I may not continue this discussion for too long. I think it's starting to drag and it's becoming repetitive. I'll make shorter responses from now on because I've pretty much said everything that I had in mind. Thanks for your contributions anyways (and to everyone else).

Quote:But to me, it mainly depends on what counts as "fucking" a nine-year-old.

Sticking your dick in one would seem to be a pretty good definition.

(May 27, 2011 at 2:17 pm)Rayaan Wrote: 1. If you were to suddenly start fucking a nine-year-old, then yes, that would make you a pedophile based on today's understanding of the term "pedophile." But to me, it mainly depends on what counts as "fucking" a nine-year-old.

Actually you're wrong. Words mean things. Hell, they probably don't even have word for pedophilia in ancient Aramaic, but that doesn't change the definition of the word.

(May 27, 2011 at 2:17 pm)Rayaan Wrote: 2. The main concern here is state of mind, agreement, and situation. Putting numbers on the age of marriage and sex is unrealistic to those who want to marry young. The marriage contract, like any other contract, is validated and legitimate in Islam when both parties consent and are in a state of full comprehension of the situation.

And I counter that a 6 or 9 year old child can't be in full comprehension of that situation.

(May 27, 2011 at 2:17 pm)Rayaan Wrote: In poor rural areas, children from the age of 6 and onwards are taught to work, to clean, and to cook. This means that by the time they reach the age of 13 getting married and having sex is considered as something normal for them because of their situation. Children would mature at a faster rate than children of today and would be taking care of their entire family at an age where kids nowadays are still running around carefree busy with fun and games.

My mother came from a poor rural area & was cooking for a family of 6 & cleaning by the time she was 7. You know what she wasn't doing? Getting fucked by pedophiles with the blessings of the rest of her family.

(May 27, 2011 at 2:17 pm)Rayaan Wrote: I believe that this is what happened with Muhammad and Aisha (though there is still doubts about the consummation). If she was able for intercourse and if she was mature enough, then I wouldn't word it as "fucking a nine-year-old," as you did, making it sound like he did a horrible thing (without proof).

All we did was use the links you provided. Sure you have a couple of modern islamic "scholars" saying that "Oh wait, she really was 15 or 16.", but that sounds like yet another load of modern apologia.

(May 26, 2011 at 2:20 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I've been on Rayaan's side for most of this. I kudos him for his guts and his level headed responses. My daughter is 8, and she's a million miles away from maturity. Where I grew up there were lots of Indian people and the children do mature a lot earlier. That said.. I can't see how it wouldn't be seriously emotionally damaging to have an adult sexual encounter at that age. Do we know this is the case? Do we know what actually happened?

And if we're saying that this societal morality is unacceptable, isn't that also saying a secular morality can fail sometimes?

congratulations now you BOTH sound like child-molesting buffoons.

"Hey look everybody, my little girl matured FASTER than the others. She's ready for marriage.... Yeah, she's only 9, but she's got the body of a 12 year old! Go ahead grown men of 50+ my little girl doesn't even know who she is yet - but please do go enjoy yourself because I have a book written by goat herders that tells me that god says it's ALLLLL GOOOOOD!"


You stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid sheep!

(May 28, 2011 at 3:11 am)Cinjin Cain Wrote: congratulations now you BOTH sound like child-molesting buffoons.

Noooooooooooo ...

.

Rayaan Wrote:3. I'm 24 and I've never had a sexual encounter in my life

... You really need to fix that

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Jaysyn Wrote:And I counter that a 6 or 9 year old child can't be in full comprehension of that situation.

And I further counter that nobody could be in full comprehension of that situation.

I do infact despise contracts, none moreso than marriage

This is getting out of hand. Deal matter of factly with whatever stance you have and everyone cool your jets on the emotionalism and ad hominem... my "limit free speech by closing thread" hammer is needing a workout, and I don't mind being a bastard today.

I don't see why my post was removed. Tack is being moody today.

I didn't remove it, however the currently active mods have reached a concensus, and I'd be happy to step into the line of fire if it gets you guys back to sharing ideas rather than slapping each other. I am also quite aware that the community percieves me as counter to their stance generally, despite all the behind the scenes advocation I do. I'm quite comfortable with that as well.