(October 18, 2016 at 9:47 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(October 17, 2016 at 11:04 am)Astreja Wrote: May I draw your attention to the word "near" in the phrase "near-death experiences"?  The people experiencing NDEs were close to death, but there is no evidence that their experiences occurred in a state of total brain shutdown.

Current research indicates that NDEs are naturally-occurring hallucinations caused by the stress of body systems in crisis, with hormonal cascades and brain hypoxia, and are not credible evidence for anything supernatural.

I believe that all such experiences are 100% physiological, 100% natural, and 0% supernatural.

1) We already went through all this Astreja and has already been established that a brain devoid of oxygen and blood can not possibly create anything at all especially clear and sharp experiences.
Forget about the current researches.
None of them established that a brain devoid of blood and oxygen is able to produce anything at all.  

2) These people were not close to death.
They were really dead.
They were pronounced dead by qualified doctors.  

Yes, I was here Astreja, and I can attest to the fact that Rik has declared victory on these points numerous times.  I just can't recall if anyone has ever agreed with him.  When Rik declares it "has already been established that .." you have to remember that he isn't a very good listener, he projects a lot and English is not his first language.  In his own mind he so convinced himself that he just assumed everyone had been carried along on the force of his 'logic'.

(October 20, 2016 at 7:38 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(October 18, 2016 at 9:47 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1) We already went through all this Astreja and has already been established that a brain devoid of oxygen and blood can not possibly create anything at all especially clear and sharp experiences.
Forget about the current researches.
None of them established that a brain devoid of blood and oxygen is able to produce anything at all.  

2) These people were not close to death.
They were really dead.
They were pronounced dead by qualified doctors.  

Yes, I was here Astreja, and I can attest to the fact that Rik has declared victory on these points numerous times.  I just can't recall if anyone has ever agreed with him.  When Rik declares it "has already been established that .." you have to remember that he isn't a very good listener, he projects a lot and English is not his first language.  In his own mind he so convinced himself that he just assumed everyone had been carried along on the force of his 'logic'.

Wrong again mate.  

Nobody so far has ever come up with solid evidence that a brain devoid of oxygen and blood can generate clear and sharp experiences as the NDEs.
These folks keep on popping up with studies and researches that GUESS and GUESS only that a dead brain is capable of doing things.
Guessing Whatever.
Guessing and no evidence of whatsoever that is why I said that everybody in this AF so far has failed
except LR.  

You didn't think about that did you?

LOL, on a long enough timescale, even the most dedicated loon gets something right on accident.  You're right, Rik, no one has produced that evidence...so why do you keep droning on about something that -no one-....has produced evidence for?

(October 20, 2016 at 7:52 am)Little Rik Wrote: Nobody so far has ever come up with solid evidence that a brain devoid of oxygen and blood can generate clear and sharp experiences as the NDEs.

I am not yet able to post links due to the 30/30 rule, Little Rik, but please Google and read these two articles:

"Near death experiences: a multidisciplinary hypothesis"

and

"Near-Death Experiences in patients with locked-in syndrome: Not always a blissful journey"


You seem to be very fond of telling people how wrong they are, and using words like "never" a lot, while not exhibiting due diligence regarding the existence of your purported god-thing.

From My perspective as a medical professional with a particular interest in neurology, I am strongly of the belief that there is almost certainly a physiological explanation for NDEs.  One of the reasons this is so hard to demonstrate is that when someone is in medical or surgical crisis, only an irresponsible idiot would use that crisis as an opportunity to set up a proper experimental environment.  The first priority is always the patient's welfare.  Always.  As a result, all NDEs are anecdotal rather than based on peer-reviewed, double-blind trials and at best neuroscience can currently only attempt to replicate elements that may or may not have caused the NDE experience.

It is indeed possible to induce NDE-like sensory phenomena in a laboratory setting in a non-emergent environment, using a fMRI (functional MRI) machine.  Your god, on the other hand, remains a weak hypothesis with only anecdotal evidence that varies wildly from one culture to another.

(October 20, 2016 at 11:02 am)Astreja Wrote:

(October 20, 2016 at 7:52 am)Little Rik Wrote: Nobody so far has ever come up with solid evidence that a brain devoid of oxygen and blood can generate clear and sharp experiences as the NDEs.

I am not yet able to post links due to the 30/30 rule, Little Rik, but please Google and read these two articles:

"Near death experiences: a multidisciplinary hypothesis"

and

"Near-Death Experiences in patients with locked-in syndrome: Not always a blissful journey"


You seem to be very fond of telling people how wrong they are, and using words like "never" a lot, while not exhibiting due diligence regarding the existence of your purported god-thing.

From My perspective as a medical professional with a particular interest in neurology, I am strongly of the belief that there is almost certainly a physiological explanation for NDEs.  One of the reasons this is so hard to demonstrate is that when someone is in medical or surgical crisis, only an irresponsible idiot would use that crisis as an opportunity to set up a proper experimental environment.  The first priority is always the patient's welfare.  Always.  As a result, all NDEs are anecdotal rather than based on peer-reviewed, double-blind trials and at best neuroscience can currently only attempt to replicate elements that may or may not have caused the NDE experience.

It is indeed possible to induce NDE-like sensory phenomena in a laboratory setting in a non-emergent environment, using a fMRI (functional MRI) machine.  Your god, on the other hand, remains a weak hypothesis with only anecdotal evidence that varies wildly from one culture to another.

You raised many points but let us see one by one.

1) NDEs show flattened brain waves in the electroencephalogram (EEG) so it just not possible for a brain out of life to create anything at all.

Now I take something from one of your link.

If this excess of bioluminescent photon emission exceeds a threshold in retinotopic visual areas, this can appear as (phosphene) lights because the brain interprets these intrinsic retinotopic bioluminescent photons as if they originated from the external physical world.

A brain can well interpret something when there is life in it not when is out of life such as in a flat EEG
so you fail Astreja.

Now researches find that even in a flat EEG there may be activity and that refute the belief that is all over but this particular research relate to coma in which the heart is still active so if you put heart and brain
out the equation as in the case of an NDEs there is nothing at all.

http://www.jhunewsletter.com/2013/10/03/...eeg-13855/


Now about God.
Most of the NDEs experience and perceive God not father Christmas or the elves.
Why is that so?
If the NDEs would not be to experience God then there would be a huge variety of visions not GOD, GOD and GOD once again.

I guess you never thought about that Astreja, did you?  

Not only that but why even strong atheists after the NDE become all of a sudden strong believers
and why those who went through an NDE dump materialism in favor of spirituality?  

(October 20, 2016 at 10:13 am)Rhythm Wrote: LOL, on a long enough timescale, even the most dedicated loon gets something right on accident.  You're right, Rik, no one has produced that evidence...so why do you keep droning on about something that -no one-....has produced evidence for?

Very simple Rit.
Because people in here keep on popping up with guessing that suppose to bring up the truth.
These of course are all failed attempts.
All I do is to refute them one by one.
Their nails never get through.  

(October 21, 2016 at 6:19 am)Little Rik Wrote: You raised many points but let us see one by one.

1) NDEs show flattened brain waves in the electroencephalogram (EEG) so it just not possible for a brain out of life to create anything at all.

Produce a link from a peer-reviewed medical journal to support this assertion.

Quote:Now researches find that even in a flat EEG there may be activity and that refute the belief that is all over but this particular research relate to coma in which the heart is still active so if you put heart and brain out the equation as in the case of an NDEs there is nothing at all.

Emphasis Mine.  All this tells Me is that there are limits to the sensitivity of the EEG recording.  I think that there is activity, but that it's too low-level to be detected.

Quote:Now about God.
Most of the NDEs experience and perceive God not father Christmas or the elves.
Why is that so?

Childhood indoctrination and the fact that god-beliefs are prevalent in many cultures.  In My case I would be far more likely to perceive Dragonlance characters, or gods from the Norse mythos.

Quote:Not only that but why even strong atheists after the NDE become all of a sudden strong believers and why those who went through an NDE dump materialism in favor of spirituality?  

Anecdotes are not evidence.  It is entirely possible for people to experience a hallucination and change their view of life, the universe and everything.  The existence of spirituality does not make the spiritual any more real.

(October 21, 2016 at 6:29 am)Little Rik Wrote: Very simple Rit.
Because people in here keep on popping up with guessing that suppose to bring up the truth.
These of course are all failed attempts.
All I do is to refute them one by one.
Their nails never get through.  

What on earth are you talking abut Rik...-you're- the one who just told us that no one has presented the evidence. I'm agreeing with you...suddenly, you seem to be disagreeing with yourself?

Quote:Nobody so far has ever come up with solid evidence that a brain devoid of oxygen and blood can generate clear and sharp experiences as the NDEs.

-exactly..........I'm assuming "nobody" includes yourself......?

(October 21, 2016 at 11:32 am)Astreja Wrote:

(October 21, 2016 at 6:19 am)Little Rik Wrote: You raised many points but let us see one by one.

1) NDEs show flattened brain waves in the electroencephalogram (EEG) so it just not possible for a brain out of life to create anything at all.

Produce a link from a peer-reviewed medical journal to support this assertion.

You still don't get it Astraja, do you.  
Researchers find out that there may be some activity but these cases related to coma patients in which the heart is still active not in NDE cases in which both heart and brain are off.  

Quote:Now researches find that even in a flat EEG there may be activity and that refute the belief that is all over but this particular research relate to coma in which the heart is still active so if you put heart and brain out the equation as in the case of an NDEs there is nothing at all.

Quote:Emphasis Mine.  All this tells Me is that there are limits to the sensitivity of the EEG recording.  I think that there is activity, but that it's too low-level to be detected.

One more failing Astreja.

NDEs experiences are full of clear and sharp visions and experiences and these are also clear and vivid after years.
This is something that could not possibly happen where there is a low-level activity in the brain.

Quote:Now about God.
Most of the NDEs experience and perceive God not father Christmas or the elves.
Why is that so?

Quote:Childhood indoctrination and the fact that god-beliefs are prevalent in many cultures.  In My case I would be far more likely to perceive Dragonlance characters, or gods from the Norse mythos.

Wrong once again Astreja.
Strong atheists that never worry about God perceived God in their NDEs.
If you just read these NDEs experiences you will find countless of people that never bother about God
or that they were atheists and all come to the conclusion that God is there.    

Quote:Not only that but why even strong atheists after the NDE become all of a sudden strong believers and why those who went through an NDE dump materialism in favor of spirituality?  

Quote:Anecdotes are not evidence.  It is entirely possible for people to experience a hallucination and change their view of life, the universe and everything.  The existence of spirituality does not make the spiritual any more real.

Hallucinations usually happen after someone use drugs.
This is not the case in NDEs experiences.
If you also consider that their brains was off then where hallucinations suppose to come from?