(November 3, 2016 at 6:55 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 3, 2016 at 5:09 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Unless things have changed since I became an atheist, I believe you are mistaken.  Oh, everyone is free to interpret the stories as literal or fictional, of course, but official church doctrine is that the OT stories are all true.

Like I asked, what is the point in washing away original sin with baptism if the Adam & Eve story is false?

No sir you are mistaken.

But still, why bother with baptism if the Adam & Eve story is fictional?  The basic tenet of Christianity is that every human is born with Original Sin due to Adam & Eve's disobeying God, and only accepting Jesus as your savior and being baptized to wash away Original Sin can you reach Heaven. The whole point of needing Christianity falls apart if you say that the Adam & Eve story is fictional, since anyone could get to Heaven just by being a good person to others.

(November 4, 2016 at 12:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 4, 2016 at 12:15 pm)Rosie_Rivets Wrote: Fetuses are not people, just like seeds are not trees.

Ugh. It's tempting not to use the story of my son who died at 23 weeks gestation when I see comments like these....

I am sorry for your loss. I know I would have been upset had I lost my own pregnancy because it was wanted. But I still do not view fetuses as people until certain criteria are met, most of which happens in the third trimester. Viability outside the womb, higher brain function, etc.

(November 4, 2016 at 10:11 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 3, 2016 at 8:00 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Gestational trophobalstic disease (hydatidiform mole) can have 46XX and 46XY, normally considered human. It never develops fetal tissue but it does attach to the uterus and does multiply. It is definitely not human. Not going to show you the gross pathology picture. No woman should have to see that.

Chromosomal abnormalities don't make someone unhuman. The offspring of 2 humans is always going to be a human lol. It makes no sense for 2 humans to conceive a different species.

Trust me, it makes a non human. google it

(November 4, 2016 at 1:03 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote:

(November 3, 2016 at 6:55 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No sir you are mistaken.

But still, why bother with baptism if the Adam & Eve story is fictional?  The basic tenet of Christianity is that every human is born with Original Sin due to Adam & Eve's disobeying God, and only accepting Jesus as your savior and being baptized to wash away Original Sin can you reach Heaven.  The whole point of needing Christianity falls apart if you say that the Adam & Eve story is fictional, since anyone could get to Heaven just by being a good person to others.

Hell, even a bad person with a good excuse could get in heaven.

"My daddy beat me!"

"I had pneumonia when I was a kid!"

"A priest raped me!"

(November 4, 2016 at 11:39 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: The op seems to have abandoned the thread. I wonder was it all the fallacies in his holy book thrown at him or the fact we didn't immediately bow down and worship yhwh?

Do you think if he comes back we can get his bible school email? Or convince more of his mates to sign up?

(November 4, 2016 at 12:15 pm)Rosie_Rivets Wrote:

(November 4, 2016 at 12:11 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I didn't mention God at all. Only mentioned that we shouldn't kill people.

Fetuses are not people, just like seeds are not trees.

Either that or Hammie is a mass murderer of epic proportions.

Do we want to bring in selective fetal reduction in multifetal pregnancies?

(November 4, 2016 at 3:01 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 4, 2016 at 12:15 pm)Rosie_Rivets Wrote: Fetuses are not people, just like seeds are not trees.

Either that or Hammie is a mass murderer of epic proportions.

We need a mayo cleaner. Are you a man for the job?

(November 4, 2016 at 1:17 pm)Rosie_Rivets Wrote: But I still do not view fetuses as people until certain criteria are met, most of which happens in the third trimester. Viability outside the womb, higher brain function, etc.

There are plenty of mentally handicapped people who never develop "higher brain function". Yet we don't question their humanity. Viability outside the womb depends on what kind of medical technology we have to keep them alive, and that changes with time. I don't see how it makes logical sense for that to be what someone's humanity hinges on. 

Anyway, here's a picture of a baby girl born prematurely. This is not third trimmester. This in the middle of the second trimmester, at 23 weeks. To clarify, are you saying then that the thing in the picture is not a person?



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-s...23-4406249

(November 4, 2016 at 12:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But the law does play a role bc it effects people's culpability. As far as you're concerned you did nothing wrong and the law agrees. I do not think people like you should go to jail. I do not think you are a bad person or a criminal. 

A more appropriate question would be whether I think it should be illegal to discard very young human beings conceived through IVF. And the answer to that is yes, I do. I think IVF should be done and handled in a way that is more in line with respecting the life of the individual. Being adopted out would be a much more ethical option imho. For those who choose to ignore the law and treat their IVF offspring in a way that is disrespectful to his/her life, yeah, I believe they should go to jail.

Wow, you're really doing your darnedest to dance around giving your actual opinion. You don't think I'm a criminal, but you think what I've done should be illegal. Do you see the problem? If these were actual humans and it was illegal to discard them, then I would definitely be a criminal deserving of jail. It's okay. You can say it.

Do you know how IVF works? You have to create more embryos than you need, because they're not all going to be equally viable. You implant the ones that have the highest chance of becoming a pregnancy. So, not only would you have to force some woman to carry the extra embryos, those that would usually be discarded already have a high chance of becoming miscarriages. If you believe embryos are human, there's no way to have an IVF process that wouldn't involve crimes against people.