(November 5, 2016 at 3:45 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: You're talking about the concept of the law of identity rather than the law itself. The law itself is absolute. The fact that something is what it is is true regardless of whether we conceptualize that.

Not in the hypothetical, it isn't.  What are you missing about a universe that operates under different rules? You are failing to address the argument offered, instead addressing your own. The question raised by the hypothetical -was not- whether or not such a universe could exist...but that if such a universe/ruleset did exist, is it logical?

Obviously, it's a silly ass question. If an illogical universe/ruleset exists, can it be logical? Well, gee, let me think for a minute.

Um, no.

(November 5, 2016 at 3:53 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Not in the hypothetical, it isn't.  What are you missing about a universe that operates under different rules?

If it operated by different rules then it would be true by the law of identity that it would operate by different rules which would mean it didn't entirely operate by different rules.

Quote:  You are failing to address the argument offered, instead addressing your own.

The point is that nothing can escape the law of identity because even if it could it would be true by virtue of the law of identity that it had escaped it and therefore it hadn't.

Quote:  The question raised by the hypothetical -was not- whether or not such a universe could exist...but that if such a universe/ruleset did exist, is it logical?

No universe can exist that can escape the law of identity or can make two things and two things not be two things and two things/four things.

Quote:Obviously, it's a silly ass question.  If an illogical universe/ruleset exists, can it be logical?  Well, gee, let me think for a minute.

An illogical universe and ruleset cannot exist. Look how you just proved it... logically speaking if any illogical universe existed it couldn't be logical... which means it would be logical... which means there can't be illogical universes.

Note also that it's called a "logical contradiction" and not an illogical contradiction.

If the law identity was false it would mean that it would be false which would be true by virtue of the law of identity and thereby it wouldn't be false. See the paradox.

If the law of identity was false it would mean if something existed it wouldn't be true to say that it existed. Which means something can't exist without the law of identity (or not exist without the law of identity... but nothing can not exist anyways because then it would be something rather than nothing). If there were illogical universes it would be true logically speaking that those universes would be illogical and therefore they wouldn't be illogical they'd be logical.

(November 5, 2016 at 4:09 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: If it operated by different rules then it would be true by the law of identity that it would operate by different rules which would mean it didn't entirely operate by different rules.

You're doing it again...but this time, with a crazy twist, lol.  Logical laws are not applicable in a hypothetical universe in which they do not apply, which was the conjecture.  Take it or leave it.  I think it;s ignorant too.....but  that doesn't mean that I can refuse to meet it on it's own grounds while claiming to have done so.  There's a word for that, you're familiar with it.  You can either argue the position stated, or offer endless argument to some other position.  Your call, but understand that the OP is just fucking with you, lol.

Quote:The point is that nothing can escape the law of identity because even if it could it would be true by virtue of the law of identity that it had escaped it and therefore it hadn't.

-stop.  The hypothetical explicitly proposes a universe that can and -does- escape logical laws, it -asks- if whatever laws it has can be logical.  Do you have something to say about that, or would you rather bicker about the other thing?

Quote:No universe can exist that can escape the law of identity or can make two things and two things not be two things and two things/four things.

The universe proposed can and does escape logical laws, can whatever laws it has, -in that case- be logical?

Quote:An illogical universe and ruleset cannot exist. Look how you just proved it... logically speaking if any illogical universe existed it couldn't be logical... which means it would be logical... which means there can't be illogical universes.

Not the question or the proposition, not even remotely.

Quote:Note also that it's called a "logical contradiction" and not an illogical contradiction.

If the law identity was false it would mean that it would be false which would be true by virtue of the law of identity and thereby it wouldn't be false. See the paradox.

If the law of identity was false it would mean if something existed it wouldn't be true to say that it existed. Which means something can't exist without the law of identity (or not exist without the law of identity... but nothing can not exist anyways because then it would be something rather than nothing). If there were illogical universes it would be true logically speaking that those universes would be illogical and therefore they wouldn't be illogical they'd be logical.

No one's discussing whether or not the law of identity is false.  The law of identity is true, here, in th OP's hypothetical...it simply doesn't exist in that other place.  It has it's own laws.  Goblygoop. The op wishes to evade logical constrictions by invoking "goblygoop"...and then -call- that evasion, call goblygoop, "logical". That is the question asked, and the argument implied. That a set of illogical rules called "goblygoop" - are logical. Do you have anything to say about that?

@ Rhythm

Premise 1: Illogical universes have to be illogical universes by their own definition.
Premise 2: The Law of Identity is a logical law.
Premise 3: The Law of Identity means that something has to be what it is by its own definition.
Premise 4: Any universe that follows any logical laws can't possibly be a fully illogical universe.

Conclusion: Fully illogical universes can't exist.

(November 5, 2016 at 7:51 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No one's discussing whether or not the law of identity is false.  The law of identity is true, here, in th OP's hypothetical...it simply doesn't exist in that other place.

Not possible. The non-existence of the Law of Identity implies the law of identity itself. By virtue of not being true it has the identity of not being true and not the identity of not not being true which means the law of identity is still there. You can never escape the law of non-contradiction or the law of identity. It's logically impossible. "Oh in this universe the law of identity doesn't apply" does no good because that itself is still an expression of TLOI

The OP is not asking you whether or not illogical universe can exist, it's asking you whether or not the illogical ruleset of that universe -assumed as a truth- can be logical.  

Do I have to -say- straw..because I'd hoped that you would realize it by now, lol.

Can the ruleset which yields 2+2=5, be a logical ruleset? People have asked all sorts of things, like how we're defining two or plus...exactly as you see them, stop overthinking it. People have expressed opinions as to whether or not such a universe could exist - not the subject of the conjecture or question. You, above, express the opinion that the rules there and the rules here are the same, that they cannot be escaped -but this is simply not so in the hypothetical...and nothing else can be or need be said about that.

It's just an argument, approach it as an argument. There may not be any such universe, perhaps there can't be any such universe....but if there were...

Alasdair Ham Wrote:No universe can exist that can escape the law of identity[...]

Rhythm Wrote:The universe proposed can and does escape logical laws[...]

This is why it's not a strawman.

.................really?

It's straw because that is neither the conjecture nor the point of contention.  The OP does not insist that there -is- such a universe, it asks you what could be said -if there were-. Ignore everything you think about what -must- be true of every universe. Address the OP for the claim and question it is, and not -everything you think all universe must be-. This hypothetical universe evades your insistence, explicitly.

Otherwise, you'll pitch straw to the end of days and OP profits, lol.

(November 5, 2016 at 8:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote: The OP is not asking you whether or not illogical universe can exist, it's asking you whether or not the illogical ruleset of that universe -assumed as a truth- can be logical.

An illogical universe can't be logical, no. An illogical universe can't be anything. It can't exist. Because as already explained it would have to at least have the Law of Identity.... and therefore it wouldn't be fully illogical. Illogical universes can't exist and and therefore they can't be logical. Because it would not be logical for an illogical universe to be logical or a logical universe to be illogical, and, all universes are logical.

Quote:Can the ruleset which yields 2+2=5, be a logical ruleset?

2+2=5 can't be logical and isn't logical. 2+2=5 can't be anything. It can't be. 2 things and 2 things being 5 things isn't even imaginable and can't even be true hypothetically. 2+2=4 is as solid as the law of identity because they have the same identity. "2 and 2" and "4" are just the same thing from two different precepts and anyone who thinks they are different is making a use mention error.

(November 5, 2016 at 8:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: .................really?

It's straw because that is neither the conjecture nor the point of contention.  The OP does not insist that there -is- such a universe, it asks you what could be said -if there were-.

I've already dealt with this. Even the hypotehtical possibility of there being an illogical universe implies the logical law of identity within it. It's not even possible hypotehtically.

If there were an illogical universe then its identity would be that of an illogical universe... which is what the law of identity is... therefore there can't be an illogical universe.

Quote: Ignore everything you think about what -must- be true of every universe.  Address the OP for the claim and question it is, and not -everything you think all universe must be-.  This hypothetical universe evades your insistence, explicitly.

You said in an illogical universe logical laws wouldn't apply and then you're asking if they can be logical. I'm saying what you're saying makes no sense.

"If there was an illogical universe" that means "If there was a universe that was not itself", it's nonsense.