(November 9, 2016 at 3:43 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(November 9, 2016 at 1:34 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: Unfortunately a lot of people, on the right and crucially the left, have been fuelling anti-establishment discourse for well over a decade. How many threads/random conversations have we seen on here lambasting centrism, accusing all politicians of being corrupt and in cahoots with the powers that be?

To borrow a 'Trumpism', some, I assume (know) are good people. People have turned away from centrism and that's why you start to see extremes on left and right. Good old fashioned rational liberalism has disappeared with Obama in the US. A lot of politicians here in the U.K. do a damned good job, at national and local level. The trouble is people want their cake and they want to eat it. They want what they want with no compromise, and are quick to tar all with the brush they tar those who rightfully deserve to be lambasted. "Governments should be afraid of their people". Too true, but not at the cost of what I see as a discourse moved beyond honest skepticism to outright cynicism and anti-intellectualism 'post truthism'.

People don't want centrism, they didn't want Clinton. They reaped what they sowed.

There is no left in American politics. That's a big part of the problem.

The farthest left ye've gone since Eugene Debbs has been Bernie Sanders, who's pretty much an Edward Heath Tory, i.e. a moderate right winger who is willing to adopt left wing policies when he knows they work.

I'm not American.

I think it would be more accurate to say there isn't a left like we have in the UK (far too left now under the Trots) rather than no left per se. Compared to Bush Obama was much more 'left', but then again when we refer to these people on a spectrum as normatively defined the terms become more and more meaningless.

But other than that I would be in a broader agreement with you. Alas the US is too alien a political beast for me to form a proper narrative. This election shows that, to a large degree of people, central and perhaps 'left' leaning liberalism isn't important to them.

(November 9, 2016 at 5:04 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: But other than that I would be in a broader agreement with you. Alas the US is too alien a political beast for me to form a proper narrative. This election shows that, to a large degree of people, central and perhaps 'left' leaning liberalism isn't important to them.

According to polls at least the younger generations lean to liberalism. At least on social matters. The outcome of this election, while not entirely surprising as far as I am concerned, is rather down to the democrats not taking advantage of the situation they were presented with by nominating a total corporate shill as an alternative to a loudmouth. It also points to a general problem, which doesn't make American politics seem that alien. It's an anti establishment sentiment on a global level. The problem with that, the extreme right has conquered that field - also on a near global level.

History is repeating itself in the wake of the big crash in 2008. We find ourselves in the same situation as our grandparents in the 30ies. Many people have little hope for the future. They also have little hope for their children building a better life for themselves. Populous politicians take advantage of that very real problem and channel the already existing resentments in their desired direction.

I hope for a better outcome than our ancestors had to deal with, but these days I remember what my parents told me about the times when they were teens. The events leading up to the rise of the fascists all over Europe. Such as the cops suddenly being the first to wear a swastika on their arms, shortly before Hitler crossed the borders. They were his fifth column already and even now hardly a day goes by without another cop being revealed to be a neo nazi or belonging to some other far right fringe group. In Germany as well as Austria.

No, the political left is dead for a long time. The right has taken the field. Unopposed and mostly unquestioned. People don't ask what benefits a rightwing government could possibly bring them. But we already see the results. In Hungary as well as Poland where they cracked down on freedom of the press as well as the checks and balances installed by the particular constitutions.

I had some hopes when Obama was elected in 2008, but for the first time in living memory, American politics doesn't look like an alien beast to me. The continents are coming together in a shared wave of resentments and negativity. In short in the most undesirable but not totally unexpected way.

(November 9, 2016 at 5:04 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote:

(November 9, 2016 at 3:43 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: There is no left in American politics. That's a big part of the problem.

The farthest left ye've gone since Eugene Debbs has been Bernie Sanders, who's pretty much an Edward Heath Tory, i.e. a moderate right winger who is willing to adopt left wing policies when he knows they work.

I'm not American.

I think it would be more accurate to say there isn't a left like we have in the UK (far too left now under the Trots) rather than no left per se. Compared to Bush Obama was much more 'left', but then again when we refer to these people on a spectrum as normatively defined the terms become more and more meaningless.

But other than that I would be in a broader agreement with you. Alas the US is too alien a political beast for me to form a proper narrative. This election shows that, to a large degree of people, central and perhaps 'left' leaning liberalism isn't important to them.

You think Labour are left wing? Not a fucking chance, the parliamentary party are still stuck in the sad delusion that aping Maggie the milk robber is the way for them to win elections. And even Jeremy Corbyn is only moderste left.

It's an indication how far to the right our political discourse has swung that a party that in major hock to big business with a leader who on most issues is only centre-left can be considered trotskyist now.

He is a Trot though, through and through, demonstrated by decades of far left activism.

Liberalism as I've already espoused has died a death, attacked by both left and right, and I am sorry for it.

I've accidentally found myself contributing to a thread. I'll quickly withdraw before gettin drawn in

(November 10, 2016 at 6:48 am)Pandæmonium Wrote: He is a Trot though, through and through, demonstrated by decades of far left activism.

He's not. He's centre left under the definitions which prevailed until the ascent of Tony Blair and his cabal of Thatcherites.

(November 10, 2016 at 12:09 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: He's not. He's centre left under the definitions which prevailed until the ascent of Tony Blair and his cabal of Thatcherites.

Agree on that. I have seen the 70ies and 80ies and what social democracy meant back then. Blair and in his wake the German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder delivered the death blow to the idea of social democracy. A social democratic party kind of lost all rights to exist if they shy away from being called left. Left isn't the same as extreme left. Too many people don't understand that distinction anymore. Europe has had it's fair share of rather successful social democrats fighting the communists and left wing extremists. But at the same time they never forgot what their parties were about. To fight for workers, small employees and small shop owners having a chance at earning a living and to have some social security.

This was just brought to my attention...
Dude, 'murricans... you're so poorly represented...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k



EDIT:
UPDATE!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcZTTB10_Vo


How about you guys try some other country that uses a fairer system?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Hondt_method

(November 10, 2016 at 12:15 pm)abaris Wrote:

(November 10, 2016 at 12:09 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: He's not. He's centre left under the definitions which prevailed until the ascent of Tony Blair and his cabal of Thatcherites.

Agree on that. I have seen the 70ies and 80ies and what social democracy meant back then. Blair and in his wake the German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder delivered the death blow to the idea of social democracy. A social democratic party kind of lost all rights to exist if they shy away from being called left. Left isn't the same as extreme left. Too many people don't understand that distinction anymore. Europe has had it's fair share of rather successful social democrats fighting the communists and left wing extremists. But at the same time they never forgot what their parties were about. To fight for workers, small employees and small shop owners having a chance at earning a living and to have some social security.

Like a lot of things political (the Nationalist Party in Westminster invented the whip after all), Ireland was ahead of the game in neutering social democracy, with Labour's Spring Tide of 1992. The two governments after that saw Labour follow two very right wing parties (Fianna Fail and Fine Gael) in right wing governments, having ditched any pretense of being for the working man and women.

(November 9, 2016 at 6:57 pm)abaris Wrote:

(November 9, 2016 at 5:04 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: But other than that I would be in a broader agreement with you. Alas the US is too alien a political beast for me to form a proper narrative. This election shows that, to a large degree of people, central and perhaps 'left' leaning liberalism isn't important to them.

According to polls at least the younger generations lean to liberalism. At least on social matters. The outcome of this election, while not entirely surprising as far as I am concerned, is rather down to the democrats not taking advantage of the situation they were presented with by nominating a total corporate shill as an alternative to a loudmouth. It also points to a general problem, which doesn't make American politics seem that alien. It's an anti establishment sentiment on a global level. The problem with that, the extreme right has conquered that field - also on a near global level.

History is repeating itself in the wake of the big crash in 2008. We find ourselves in the same situation as our grandparents in the 30ies. Many people have little hope for the future. They also have little hope for their children building a better life for themselves. Populous politicians take advantage of that very real problem and channel the already existing resentments in their desired direction.

I hope for a better outcome than our ancestors had to deal with, but these days I remember what my parents told me about the times when they were teens. The events leading up to the rise of the fascists all over Europe. Such as the cops suddenly being the first to wear a swastika on their arms, shortly before Hitler crossed the borders. They were his fifth column already and even now hardly a day goes by without another cop being revealed to be a neo nazi or belonging to some other far right fringe group. In Germany as well as Austria.

No, the political left is dead for a long time. The right has taken the field. Unopposed and mostly unquestioned. People don't ask what benefits a rightwing government could possibly bring them. But we already see the results. In Hungary as well as Poland where they cracked down on freedom of the press as well as the checks and balances installed by the particular constitutions.

I had some hopes when Obama was elected in 2008, but for the first time in living memory, American politics doesn't look like an alien beast to me. The continents are coming together in a shared wave of resentments and negativity. In short in the most undesirable but not totally unexpected way.

Jesus H fucking Christ Abaris, you're scaring me.
I know the KKK actually had a party when Trump won.  I knew the skin heads and neo Nazis were making bids for power here and other places.  Is this really happening??

Aroura... I'm just gonna leave this here:
http://www.cometoportugal.com/