Quote:These ideas aren't mutually exclusive. Trump is in authority, and he deserves our respect.

Really?  Wish someone would have told those fine xtian republicunts.

Apparently respect doesn't apply to niggers, huh?

(November 10, 2016 at 9:22 pm)Emzap Wrote:

(November 10, 2016 at 6:50 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: because deep down you know what your pastor has fed you is a pack of lies.

Tell me Emzap, are you worried what'll happen when the child sex abuse scandal your church has currently buried boils over? Are you worried about when your leaders are revealed to be bunch of money grubbing snake oil salesmen out to steal your money? Are you worried about that moment that will come when you realise your whole worldview is built on nothing more than a pack of bronze age lies?

No, its because if you look back, there are about 10 pages dedicated to discussing abortion. We disagree. We will continue to disagree no matter how much we defend our own sides. 

I know that some Christians and especially 'so called Christians' use God as an excuse and a cover to do horrible things. I know that this is probably true of some churches, and some church leaders. Sin affects all of humankind. Christians aren't exempt. We aren't perfect people, as much as some claim to be. But we realize our brokenness and need for forgiveness and for a savior, Jesus Christ. Knowing Him and believing in Him doesn't make us perfect. The struggle with sin won't end until we reach Heaven. And then there are those who masquerade around churches who are really not Christians. They do horrible things with no conscience against it. It happens in churches, and that breaks my heart. Scandal happens in schools, in the government, in families, and in just about every aspect of society. What a broken world we live in.. But that doesn't change what I believe about God. My hope is build on nothing less than Jesus' blood and His righteousness.

If humans are the final culmination of the perfect god's perfect plqn, then why are they so flawed, both physically (George W Bush nearly choked on a pretzel while in office, for example) and morally (eg Mother Teresa got off on the suffering of those she was trying to help, Pat Robertson gets off by thinking of all the little old ladies he's put into destitution over the years).

Oh and you still haven't answered my last question, what will you do when you realise that jesusism is a lie?

(November 10, 2016 at 9:31 pm)Emzap Wrote:

(November 10, 2016 at 9:14 pm)abaris Wrote: Why?

Is respect on discount these days? Or do you by any chance go by the biblical quote of everyone in authority is there because god wills it? If so, tell me why Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot aren't deserving of the same kind of respect.

I'd say when they were in power they did deserve the respect of the people they were ruling over. That doesn't mean we agree with them. It doesn't mean we obey them if they tell us to do something outright wrong. But our attitude towards them should be that of respect. Just like that teacher growing up that you couldn't stand, you still didn't disobey them when they told you to quiet down and listen, or call them by their first name. You don't like them, but you respect their position.

So from that position I'm going to have to assume that you'd have been ok operating the gas chambers in Auschwitz if Hitler ordered you to.

You know after WW2 most countries passed laws and regulations to combat the unquestioning obedience to authority you espouse. For examle in the US armed forces it is a crime to obey an illegal order from a superior, and an honourable conduct to disobey and actively frustrate one.

Xtians would make such great slaves!

(November 11, 2016 at 6:06 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(November 10, 2016 at 9:31 pm)Emzap Wrote: I'd say when they were in power they did deserve the respect of the people they were ruling over. That doesn't mean we agree with them. It doesn't mean we obey them if they tell us to do something outright wrong. But our attitude towards them should be that of respect. Just like that teacher growing up that you couldn't stand, you still didn't disobey them when they told you to quiet down and listen, or call them by their first name. You don't like them, but you respect their position.

So from that position I'm going to have to assume that you'd have been ok operating the gas chambers in Auschwitz if Hitler ordered you to.

You know after WW2 most countries passed laws and regulations to combat the unquestioning obedience to authority you espouse. For examle in the US armed forces it is a crime to obey an illegal order from a superior, and an honourable conduct to disobey and actively frustrate one.

No. You must have misread what I said. I bolded and underlined it for you. I would NOT have been ok with operating gas chambers in Auschwitz. I would NOT have done it. Its not unquestioning obedience.

(November 11, 2016 at 1:27 pm)Emzap Wrote: No. You must have misread what I said. I bolded and underlined it for you. I would NOT have been ok with operating gas chambers in Auschwitz. I would NOT have done it. Its not unquestioning obedience.

So where does respect come into play? When is it earned? You previously claimed - more or less - that holding a position is an automated avenue to respect. I resent that, since values and actions are the only factors requiring or denying respect. You start from a neutral position and then you move in a certain direction.

(November 11, 2016 at 6:00 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(November 10, 2016 at 9:22 pm)Emzap Wrote: No, its because if you look back, there are about 10 pages dedicated to discussing abortion. We disagree. We will continue to disagree no matter how much we defend our own sides. 

I know that some Christians and especially 'so called Christians' use God as an excuse and a cover to do horrible things. I know that this is probably true of some churches, and some church leaders. Sin affects all of humankind. Christians aren't exempt. We aren't perfect people, as much as some claim to be. But we realize our brokenness and need for forgiveness and for a savior, Jesus Christ. Knowing Him and believing in Him doesn't make us perfect. The struggle with sin won't end until we reach Heaven. And then there are those who masquerade around churches who are really not Christians. They do horrible things with no conscience against it. It happens in churches, and that breaks my heart. Scandal happens in schools, in the government, in families, and in just about every aspect of society. What a broken world we live in.. But that doesn't change what I believe about God. My hope is build on nothing less than Jesus' blood and His righteousness.

If humans are the final culmination of the perfect god's perfect plqn, then why are they so flawed, both physically (George W Bush nearly choked on a pretzel while in office, for example) and morally (eg Mother Teresa got off on the suffering of those she was trying to help, Pat Robertson gets off by thinking of all the little old ladies he's put into destitution over the years).

Oh and you still haven't answered my last question, what will you do when you realise that jesusism is a lie?

They are flawed because of sin. Because they have chosen a way to live apart from the way God wants for them, and that sin has been passed down generation to generation. But God sent His son, Jesus, to die to pay the penalty for our sin and to redeem and restore those who believe. This isn't in this life, but in the next. There is hope that the brokenness of humanity will be fixed. Also, I don't know that humans are the 'final culmination' of God's perfect plan. There is more to God's plan than this life, this time, right now. Its not over. 

I don't plan for something I don't think will happen. What will you do when you realize that Jesusism is true? If I'm wrong, I lose nothing. But if you are wrong, you lose everything. In light of eternity, I want to be right with my Creator.

And after all your bullshit we are back to just another silly purveyor of Pascal's Wager.

(November 11, 2016 at 1:37 pm)Emzap Wrote:

(November 11, 2016 at 6:00 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: If humans are the final culmination of the perfect god's perfect plqn, then why are they so flawed, both physically (George W Bush nearly choked on a pretzel while in office, for example) and morally (eg Mother Teresa got off on the suffering of those she was trying to help, Pat Robertson gets off by thinking of all the little old ladies he's put into destitution over the years).

Oh and you still haven't answered my last question, what will you do when you realise that jesusism is a lie?

They are flawed because of sin. Because they have chosen a way to live apart from the way God wants for them, and that sin has been passed down generation to generation. But God sent His son, Jesus, to die to pay the penalty for our sin and to redeem and restore those who believe. This isn't in this life, but in the next. There is hope that the brokenness of humanity will be fixed. Also, I don't know that humans are the 'final culmination' of God's perfect plan. There is more to God's plan than this life, this time, right now. Its not over. 

I don't plan for something I don't think will happen. What will you do when you realize that Jesusism is true? If I'm wrong, I lose nothing. But if you are wrong, you lose everything. In light of eternity, I want to be right with my Creator.

I don't see Jesusism as likely, in fact it's practically impossible for it to be true. So why waste my time living a boring life for Jesus I have no interest in whatsoever? I'm willing to take that "risk" just as I'm willing to take the "risk" of going on the Luna Park rides. There's no real risk to be concerned about.

(November 11, 2016 at 1:51 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(November 11, 2016 at 1:37 pm)Emzap Wrote: They are flawed because of sin. Because they have chosen a way to live apart from the way God wants for them, and that sin has been passed down generation to generation. But God sent His son, Jesus, to die to pay the penalty for our sin and to redeem and restore those who believe. This isn't in this life, but in the next. There is hope that the brokenness of humanity will be fixed. Also, I don't know that humans are the 'final culmination' of God's perfect plan. There is more to God's plan than this life, this time, right now. Its not over. 

I don't plan for something I don't think will happen. What will you do when you realize that Jesusism is true? If I'm wrong, I lose nothing. But if you are wrong, you lose everything. In light of eternity, I want to be right with my Creator.

I don't see Jesusism as likely, in fact it's practically impossible for it to be true. So why waste my time living a boring life for Jesus I have no interest in whatsoever? I'm willing to take that "risk" just as I'm willing to take the "risk" of going on the Luna Park rides. There's no real risk to be concerned about.

You are right. It is practically impossible for it to be true based on what we know and can observe. Thats part of what makes it so amazing that it is true. Thats why faith is so important. Personally, I don't think living for Jesus is boring at all. I greatly enjoy life, and find that it is made better by knowing Jesus. But to each his own. You are right that there is no real risk to be concerned about based on your assumptions. But if I am right, there is definitely a risk, and it is definitely real.