(June 9, 2011 at 3:42 pm)ElChuckadoro Wrote: It's kind of sad that I get so into these debates at my age, though.

It's sad that we have to have these debates at all eh? Guess i'm a sad bastard.

Napoleon666 Wrote:It's sad that we have to have these debates at all eh? Guess i'm a sad bastard.

It's kind of sad, but it's the, "I'm right and you're wrong" thing, what bugs me about it is the hateful things that people say (Not a lot of people on this forum of course, this is the most civilized forum I've been on in ages) like "All fags are doing this by their own choice, therefore it is sinning" with only a holy text and a few scientific facts/theories to back it up. Of course, I have only a few things to say that could defend my beliefs on this forum, because I'm pretty new here and, let's face it, I'm in a tank of sharks, at the moment, metaphorically speaking.

civilized.. can't have it.

Ok I'll state it. I feel homosexuality, when (or if) it's a choice is wrong. It is wrong because what is right is useful and promotes (at the very least) personal groth and overall happiness. I'm not saying homosexual behavior isn't natural. It's exhibited in the natural world in other species. I'm not saying it's wrong because of any scriptures because the translated homosexuality is a much later and different term than the original context. I'm saying that if you have a subconscious detriment not regulated by the ego that causes you to not want to follow your true nature then that is a detriment to the self and therefore personally wrong.

A bit of personal experience that I hope sheds some light on this subject:

First, I can testify that human sexuality is not this black-and-white, gay-or-straight dichotomy that we seem to think it is in this Islamo-Christian influenced culture of ours. My sexuality, if it needs classification, could be best described as mostly-heterosexual-bisexual. Because human sexuality is shades of bisexual gray, I speculate that when this quack therapy or "praying the gay away" "works" it's either because of repressed sexuality or they got a bisexual of some degree, enough to effectively function in a het relationship.

Also, while Rayaan is correct that the environment, experience or even human will can rewire the brain, my experience is that human sexuality is hardwired beyond such minor changes. First of all, if anything our society goes to great lengths to discourage same-gender affections. I kept my attractions to the same gender so well supressed that even I wasn't consciously aware of them, not for religious reasons (I was raised agnostic) but social reasons alone. For example, I made use of what I now call the lust-into-envy formula to rationalize away any time I spent admiring someone of the same gender.

Secondly, anti-gay quacks have speculated that psychological trauma can trigger homosexual urges but nothing of what they describe is even remotely in my background. I came from a stable family without any divorce or significant problems with my parents' marriage. I had a great relationship with both parents. I suffered no abuse from anyone, either growing up or afterwords. Aside from coming of age in the red-state 80s anti-gay environment, nothing stopped me from developing normally.

I'm really having trouble following what Tack is trying to say here. Tack, can you clarify what you mean by choosing to be gay against one's true nature?

(June 10, 2011 at 4:48 am)tackattack Wrote: I feel homosexuality, when (or if) it's a choice is wrong.

Sexuality isn't and can never be a 'choice' any more than one can choose to like the taste of certain types of food. I am heterosexual and I could no more 'choose' to be gay than I could to like celery. I appreciate that many people enjoy celery and that's lovely, but for me, my brain simply isn't wired that way so no matter how many times I might try celery I will never enjoy it or want to have it again.

And why would anyone who doesn't like the taste of celery decide to choose to be a life long celery eater :S

(June 10, 2011 at 9:16 am)Darwinian Wrote:

(June 10, 2011 at 4:48 am)tackattack Wrote: I feel homosexuality, when (or if) it's a choice is wrong.

Sexuality isn't and can never be a 'choice' any more than one can choose to like the taste of certain types of food. I am heterosexual and I could no more 'choose' to be gay than I could to like celery. I appreciate that many people enjoy celery and that's lovely, but for me, my brain simply isn't wired that way so no matter how many times I might try celery I will never enjoy it or want to have it again.

And why would anyone who doesn't like the taste of celery decide to choose to be a life long celery eater :S

Because celery is healthy? you can dislike things and still do them, sexuality is about choice and opportunity.

And the conclusion i take from recent studies i that the brain is hardwired to look for sex independent of the gender, only when applied hormones related to aggressiveness is when animals start showing preference for straight sex

(June 10, 2011 at 4:48 am)tackattack Wrote: civilized.. can't have it.

Ok I'll state it. I feel homosexuality, when (or if) it's a choice is wrong. It is wrong because what is right is useful and promotes (at the very least) personal groth and overall happiness. I'm not saying homosexual behavior isn't natural. It's exhibited in the natural world in other species. I'm not saying it's wrong because of any scriptures because the translated homosexuality is a much later and different term than the original context. I'm saying that if you have a subconscious detriment not regulated by the ego that causes you to not want to follow your true nature then that is a detriment to the self and therefore personally wrong.

I don't think sexuality can ever be a choice as I believe it is natural attraction.
But I suppose one could say paedophilia is perhaps natural attraction and I would say that is most definitely wrong... Although, I do not see the two similar.
It is an interesting topic open for debate nonetheless.

(June 10, 2011 at 4:48 am)tackattack Wrote: I'm saying that if you have a subconscious detriment not regulated by the ego that causes you to not want to follow your true nature then that is a detriment to the self and therefore personally wrong.

Homosexuality is not a detriment and it is their true nature therefore not following it would be wrong.

I reckon, tackaattack, if the bit in the Bible about homosexuality being an abomination to god, wasn't there, you'd come out and say it wasn't wrong at all. It does say that however, and so you're inventing excuses to say it's wrong, that aren't so childish as "Cos the Bible says so", because you'd be laughed at if you did.

At first I thought it said; "PRY away the gay"

Silly me..just think of that..having to pry gays off of you..LMFAO.