It seems to me that Christians, Jews, and Muslims take the Abrahamic God at his word pretty easily.  They don't require any proof of the claims he makes, and instead focus on faith that he is the one true god.  Why?  Because he says so.  Looking at it from another direction... it seems like one giant con to me.  Especially since the morality of the bible is so close to the morality of the people who wrote the bible.

I mean even if Yahweh exists... there's the possibility that he's nothing more than a fraud, a snake oil salesman.  And it's a pretty strong possibility IF he exists.  I mean the stories that were told in the bible?  None of them were first hand accounts.  They all read like tall tales that people tell when they're talking about the fish they caught out in the ocean.  And they all sound so impressive--and were probably more so to the people of the time.  Rather than giving them knowledge they had no possibility of knowing he gave them a system of morality pretty much matching that of their own time.  Why?  Because I propose if he did exist--that he was a fraud.  That he wasn't the creator of the universe, and was trying to take credit for someone else's work.  All to get people to worship and praise and adulate him.  Given this, the concept of hell makes a lot more sense.  Why would the creator of the universe care about praise and adulation?  What does he gain out of it?  If anything, just recognizing the wonderfulness of their creation would be the greatest praise you could give someone if they created the universe.  But if they didn't--it wouldn't be enough.  If you were a charlatan like I propose Yahweh would be if he existed--then you'd need more.  And that's where the concept of heaven and hell come in.  Promises of Gold that people buy into because it sounds good!  Even though it sounds too good to be true.  It's a lot easier to appeal to people as the moral authority when everyone already pretty much agrees with you.  It'd be hard work for anyone to actually change someone else's morals.  Especially an entire tribe.  If you want to make a god claim when you aren't god, it'd be much easier to do so if you adapt your system of morality (and as a fraud you'd have to have one in case they ask).  It also makes it really easy to write up a system of laws for your followers to follow--and they're already following most of them anyway.

The creator of the universe would surely know that the sun is older than the earth.  They would know that sickness is caused by germs.  And they would know that the earth is undoubtedly round.  People say they read the bible and are inspired by it--but assuming that Yahweh is actually inspiring them, it doesn't even really prove that he is who he says he is.  Not if his capabilities are that of manipulation.  He doesn't have to be god to inspire people with his works.  For that matter, he wouldn't even really need any special powers.  People are inspired by all sorts of works. Including those of cult leaders.

Looking at the stories in the bible... most of them talk of Yahweh's great power.  Which is a great con-man technique.  And given that we haven't really seen Yahweh do any of this stuff since the invention of the camera (and long before that as well), we have no reason to believe that he's necessarily telling the truth.  He's asking for something--in exchange for an unproven concept.  It's like the Nigeran Prince Scheme.  If only you give him all your love and affection and follow his rules--he'll let you go to heaven when you die.  (If you only give him your bank account, he'll route a lot of money into it!)

This would explain why he's so absent if he does exist--he's not really all powerful.  And people today wouldn't just accept it if someone appeared and claimed they were god (or if they would, they'd be considered mentally ill by most people, and nobody would listen to them)  Or if he did exist, he might be dead I suppose.  Maybe some greater god killed him, or the creator of the universe got sick of all of his claims, and snuffed him out.

I started thinking about this when someone (I think it was a Chick Track) said that the contradictions in the bible were put there purposely because it'd weed out all the non-believers.  Which is a silly concept.  "The parts that aren't true are just there to fool non-believers!"  That such a god would be untrustworthy, which would make that god a fraud.  Even if there was a Yahweh, I see no reason to think he's actually the one who created the universe.  Or that any of his stories are true.

If Yahweh exists he's a lot worse than a fraud.

If he exists, he isn't worthy of worship. The bible, if taken at face value, is just too screwed up for words. At best his morality is only a little better than contemporary views, which should have been a red flag. The book we're supposed to use to understand this deity fails morally and factually. Even Jesus is kind of a fraud, because when he said the world was going to end soon, he kind of meant in the next few decades. Hence telling people to abandon their families, and get rid of all their possessions.

He doesn't exist.  And the people who invented him are the frauds.

If Yahweh exists, it had better be wishing it doesn't. Because I will make it my mission to destroy it utterly.

If a creator exists, the probability of it bearing any resemblance to this ridiculous humanoid projection is next to zero in my estimation. I'm sure whatever it is would find these stories pretty insulting, yet surprised people worship it regardless.

I would expect the creator to be unaware of our existence at all, much less the fact that we are self-aware. That's if the creator even realises they created all this in the first place, and it isn't an accidental side-effect of some process or other in its own reality.

God is no Fraud, God decides the rules friend.

(November 13, 2016 at 9:40 pm)Cecelia Wrote: It seems to me that Christians, Jews, and Muslims take the Abrahamic God at his word pretty easily.  They don't require any proof of the claims he makes, and instead focus on faith that he is the one true god.  Why?  Because he says so.  Looking at it from another direction... it seems like one giant con to me.  Especially since the morality of the bible is so close to the morality of the people who wrote the bible.

Actually the opposite is true.. Why do you think they tried and ultimately killed Christ? why do you think the apostles were hunted? Why do you think Rome martyred so many thousands of Christians?

Because everything they believed from Christ on was the polar opposite of what people of that time thought was right and wrong.

Quote:I mean even if Yahweh exists... there's the possibility that he's nothing more than a fraud, a snake oil salesman.  And it's a pretty strong possibility IF he exists.  I mean the stories that were told in the bible?  None of them were first hand accounts.

 that's not true. The vast majority of the NT was written from the 1st person perspective.

Quote:They all read like tall tales that people tell when they're talking about the fish they caught out in the ocean. 

Are you saying no one has ever caught a large fish out of the ocean?

Just because it is not your everyday does not make what has been recorded impossible.

Quote: And they all sound so impressive--and were probably more so to the people of the time.  Rather than giving them knowledge they had no possibility of knowing he gave them a system of morality pretty much matching that of their own time.

  again not true. Even Moses' rules/laws were polar opposite which is why they spent 40 years in the desert. So as to ween out of the old schoolers who still wanted to do things the old way, and did not want to live by God's new rules. God didn't want them perverting his new land with the old way of doing things... Even moses was not allowed into the promised land because he did things the old way.

Quote:Why?  Because I propose if he did exist--that he was a fraud.  That he wasn't the creator of the universe, and was trying to take credit for someone else's work.

Then how do you know that someone else you mentioned... is not the God we worship? If your reasoning was solely based on the laws complying with what was popular at the time, i have shown you that conclusion is wrong. what else you got?

Quote:  All to get people to worship and praise and adulate him.  Given this, the concept of hell makes a lot more sense. 

What about for the jews??? For them God did not give them an understanding of Hell. only destruction/death.

Quote: Why would the creator of the universe care about praise and adulation? 

who says he does?

Quote:What does he gain out of it?  If anything, just recognizing the wonderfulness of their creation would be the greatest praise you could give someone if they created the universe.  But if they didn't--it wouldn't be enough.

 Praise given to God is out of respect and honor from those of us who have been given much.

Quote: If you were a charlatan like I propose Yahweh would be if he existed--then you'd need more.  And that's where the concept of heaven and hell come in. 

Again the jews were not privy to complete knoweledge, just life and death.

Quote:Promises of Gold that people buy into because it sounds good!  Even though it sounds too good to be true.  It's a lot easier to appeal to people as the moral authority when everyone already pretty much agrees with you.

 what is asphalt worth to you? what about clay road/dirt? can you buy anything with a chunk of asphalt you break off from the road?

That's the idea here sport.. Our most valuable things becomes common/worthless 'used' building material. Meaning what is important to us now will be meaningless there. Think about it. if gold is everywhere and accessible to everyone then it's value is nill.

In otherwords we are not rewarded with gold, we are put in an environment that monetary value has little to no meaning... Would you consider a dump truck load of common rocks and sand to be of great value to you? That is what it means to have streets of Gold... It's not payment, it means gold is worthless. So tell me somemore how this is supposed to be an enticement if my 'gold' is worth less than dirt?

Quote: It'd be hard work for anyone to actually change someone else's morals.  Especially an entire tribe.  If you want to make a god claim when you aren't god, it'd be much easier to do so if you adapt your system of morality (and as a fraud you'd have to have one in case they ask).  It also makes it really easy to write up a system of laws for your followers to follow--and they're already following most of them anyway.

Not much of a thinker are you??? Or I shouldn't say that... The person who originally espoused this sentiment is not much of a thinker is he?

In the time of Christ... loyalty to Christ = stoning or crusifiction because you have been deemed a religious radical. Heaven= slavery to God and money is meaningless. So then there must be an element you are missing if you think there was an appeal that had to do with being bought off somehow.. 1st centruy christians understood this and believed anyway... Your question should be why?

Quote:The creator of the universe would surely know that the sun is older than the earth.

 The bible does not say the earth is older than the sun. It simply states that from a garden first perspective the sun moon and stars were not visible to the 4th day.

Quote: They would know that sickness is caused by germs.

Not all sickness are... You should know that.

Quote:  And they would know that the earth is undoubtedly round.

 Actually it's a sphere, but there isn't a word for a geometric shape that did not get identified for a 1000 years later. Rather the closest word is 'circle which is used to describe the earth.

Quote: People say they read the bible and are inspired by it--but assuming that Yahweh is actually inspiring them, it doesn't even really prove that he is who he says he is. 

Does a GPS map prove that your destination exists? or is it just directions to said 'proof'? The same is true for the bible. It is/was never ever meant to be proof of anything, just directions to find God.

Quote:Not if his capabilities are that of manipulation.  He doesn't have to be god to inspire people with his works.  For that matter, he wouldn't even really need any special powers.  People are inspired by all sorts of works. Including those of cult leaders.

??? What if it is not about works per say? what if is about something else and 'works' are just an after effect?

Quote:Looking at the stories in the bible... most of them talk of Yahweh's great power.  Which is a great con-man technique.

 And.. It can be a 'technique' to describe great power.

Quote: And given that we haven't really seen Yahweh do any of this stuff since the invention of the camera (and long before that as well), we have no reason to believe that he's necessarily telling the truth.

and if you did, you'd claim photoshop. If you saw it you would not believe what your eyes told you, you'd claim a magician's tricks.. Miracles aren't proof for the non believers. Read the bible they never were meant to be that.. Look at the jews following moses in the desert for 40 years. Look at all they were privy to, the plagues, the red sea, mana from heaven water from rocks,being heal by looking at a bronze snake on a pole, yet they all still did not believe.

For some the only way they would believe in God is if they had control of God.. (could manifest what they wanted when they wanted.)

Quote: He's asking for something--in exchange for an unproven concept.  It's like the Nigeran Prince Scheme.  If only you give him all your love and affection and follow his rules--he'll let you go to heaven when you die.  (If you only give him your bank account, he'll route a lot of money into it!)

Actually Christ says it like this: All one need is a mustard seed's amount of faith. If you plant this seed where he says plant it then you will yield tremendous results.

Quote:This would explain why he's so absent if he does exist--he's not really all powerful. 

Let's say there is a God, but you have the complete bass ackwards idea of who He is, What He wants, or How to approach Him.. Why then would He reward your efforts if you are not doing ANYTHING He has Asked you to do?

Quote:And people today wouldn't just accept it if someone appeared and claimed they were god (or if they would, they'd be considered mentally ill by most people, and nobody would listen to them)  Or if he did exist, he might be dead I suppose.  Maybe some greater god killed him, or the creator of the universe got sick of all of his claims, and snuffed him out.

OR maybe it is like I said. You have it wrong, and the God of the bible is not going to give you version of him life by granting your wishes to something you have created. Maybe just maybe there are people right now who have seen and directly worked with God and know Him to be true, but only on His terms as He instructs..

Quote:I started thinking about this when someone (I think it was a Chick Track) said that the contradictions in the bible were put there purposely because it'd weed out all the non-believers.  Which is a silly concept.  "The parts that aren't true are just there to fool non-believers!"  That such a god would be untrustworthy, which would make that god a fraud.  Even if there was a Yahweh, I see no reason to think he's actually the one who created the universe.  Or that any of his stories are true.

What contradictions?

I have studied the bible for a while and the only contradictions I have found are between religious perception/rules and what the bible actually says.

(November 14, 2016 at 2:33 am)robvalue Wrote: If a creator exists, the probability of it bearing any resemblance to this ridiculous humanoid projection is next to zero in my estimation. I'm sure whatever it is would find these stories pretty insulting, yet surprised people worship it regardless.

I would expect the creator to be unaware of our existence at all, much less the fact that we are self-aware. That's if the creator even realises they created all this in the first place, and it isn't an accidental side-effect of some process or other in its own reality.

Yeah, this^. 

I'll add that I'd give a Creator of Everything a helluva lot more credit than the petty, vengeful beast(s) found in the Bible. The idea that it's obsessed with what what we do with our genitals, how we combine certain foods, and that if we fail to abide by those rules that it'll punish us forever----or that our reward for abiding by those rules is to worship it forever is profoundly silly. 

But assuming such a thing is eternal, if it did create humans for the specific purpose of worshipping it, it appears that it was just a phase it was going through and has moved on to other things. 

Or maybe it graduated Middle School For Gods and has been sent away to a boarding school in Sweden for Gods or something like that. It's just as possible as anything else.

(November 14, 2016 at 2:33 am)robvalue Wrote: If a creator exists, the probability of it bearing any resemblance to this ridiculous humanoid projection is next to zero in my estimation. I'm sure whatever it is would find these stories pretty insulting, yet surprised people worship it regardless.

I would expect the creator to be unaware of our existence at all, much less the fact that we are self-aware. That's if the creator even realises they created all this in the first place, and it isn't an accidental side-effect of some process or other in its own reality.

Glob...

ever watch start trek? TOS? Or even TNG or really any of it. What about star wars?

Even notice how everyone for the most part are human-ish/Based on two arms torso, two legs, one head and a pair of hands and feet?

Ever notice how when we imagine a robot it basically looks like us as well?

Albeit imaginary, our natural inclination is to 'create' things or beings we look like/can relate to. Star trek and even star wars is Humanity's version of a created universe, and even so it is populated with human like creatures despite darwins aversion to the likelihood of a galaxy fill with human type beings.

So then why oh why is it so implausible in your great 'thinker' that God would not also do the same?