(November 18, 2016 at 6:53 pm)operator Wrote: Even though there are an alarmingly large number of muslims who believe that death should be the punishment for apostasy, that gays should be killed, that sharia law should be implemented in the western world, etc. etc. you can't just 'ban' an entire group of people from entering our country. It sounds very simple and effective but it's not.

Also putting a ban on muslims is like a few steps away from having internment camps for all Middle Eastern people.

I don't see the logic behind that last statement of yours.

(November 18, 2016 at 6:47 pm)abaris Wrote:

(November 18, 2016 at 6:40 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: And yes, it was supposed to be a bit of a tease. I wasn't trying to argue with him or his point. You're the one freaking out over semantics, not me. I'm sorry you're so quick to dismiss me and take that comment as me defending bigots.

Does that make it any better in your opinion? I'm not saying it's good, but X, Y or Z isn't a race ....

Standard argument.

As usual, you're not defending bigots. You're just making their often repeated case. Obviously without even noticing. That's a tease?

What she is failing to see, is that she is falsely attaching her empathy as coming from a book or club, but they all do that. And that attaching your own nature to old myths instead of knowing we evolved with empathy, that allows them to justify their own positions while ignoring the bigotry of others, even under the same label.

"They all" FYI CL isn't about one label being wrong or right, but in that our species back then, and even now suffers far too much from false perceptions and justify them with very bad logic.

CL others here have said to me in chat that you are a very nice person. And our species ability for empathy is worldwide so it should never be attached automatically to ANY label. Where even liberals go wrong is doing the same thing violent people do, they fail to see that their claims of the source of their morality is different, but it is not.

In the contest of Religion both the Catholic and Baptist, white evangelical or black southern Baptist, still share the same two core heros of that book, regardless of their differences on interpretation or political views. Just like Sunnis and Shiites are still both Muslims with different interpretations of Islam. Just like a Chinese Buddhist and Tibet Buddhist and Shinto Buddhist are still all Buddhists.

In context of reality however, our morality as a species IS NOT coming from a different place. It is coming from evolution. It is why we know elephants mourn and just like humans, protect their young. Our species mistake is attaching morality to old books and old clubs.

I most certainly do think humans worldwide are capable of very great empathy and compassion, but at the same time unfortunately I know from history and news that we are also a species capable of very great cruelty. The only difference between a believer, be it Christian, or Muslim or Hindu,Jew  or even more earthy religions like Buddhism, is where the source of that morality is coming from. There is not one nation, friend or foe alike, that does not have prisons or hospitals. That says all anyone should need to know about the nature of our species and where morality is really coming from.

Why does it always have to be over your obsession with religion?

That's certainly not about that. The previous comment about pro life was about it. It made me shake my head in disbelief for the first time. Equating someone not calling for restricting already existing laws with a baby killer and putting them on the same level as someone degrading minorities and being endorsed by the KKK.

The X, Y, Z isn't a race isn't religious. Only stupid. And in many cases used to wiggle out of being called out for bigotry.

Correction:

Trump won the ignorance vote.

(November 18, 2016 at 7:35 pm)abaris Wrote: Why does it always have to be over your obsession with religion?

That's certainly not about that. The previous comment about pro life was about it. It made me shake my head in disbelief for the first time. Equating someone not calling for restricting already existing laws with a baby killer and putting them on the same level as someone degrading minorities and being endorsed by the KKK.

The X, Y, Z isn't a race isn't religious. Only stupid. And in many cases used to wiggle out of being called out for bigotry.

No Abris it is not an obsession. Scientists do literally have an answer to explain why bad logic leads to religion. I am betting you have read Dakwin's God Delusion and would also bet that you have read Victor Stenger's "The New Atheism".

Even Sam Harris has argued this about well intended liberals. It is well intended to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but again, the logic someone uses to justify having a religion is still ultimately flawed logic, and that DOES lead to things like racism. But with Sam I do find that ironic because he wont apply that to Buddhists, and there are most certainly divisions between them.

If you remove the cloak of religion then the "otherism" cannot be defended logically because that other person is no longer "other".

Pro life is a majority position that religions use to seek to ban it. Pro choice is ALSO argued by the liberal left whom point to the kinder Jesus in the NT whom say don't judge. Atheists on the other hand, simply try to argue their positions from science. It isn't impossible for an atheist to be pro life, but far more unlikely that it gets beyond a personal choice.

Look, all of that IS used as a distraction that religion DOES cause racism. I have been called racist by a Hindu, despite being able to point out atheists born in India. I have been called racist by Buddhists too. I mostly deal with our right wing who try to equate minorities to reverse racism. 

Race IS attached to religion, to say it isn't  is wrong. If it were not racism would not exist. 

It has more to do with the concept of the idea of religion than an individual. Not all religious people are racist, no, but religion is still the root cause of it. If both sides under an umbrella label use the same texts and have the same heros they will justify their positions, and racism is the result of ignoring that. It is more pronounced when the skin color and borders are further away. It is why a white rural Christian has different politics and interpretations of the same club than an Urban African American.

It is why Hindus murdered a Muslim for killing a cow. It is why Buddhist have murdered Muslims in Asia. It is why Jews and Muslims murder each other in Palestine and Israel. Religion teaches tribalism, and that tribalism hides behind words like race and ethnic and culture. You cant get rid of either religion or racism on a planet of 7 billion, but you can educate more humans to understand where the roots of our divisions come from, including the causes of racism.

(November 18, 2016 at 7:42 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: Correction:

Trump won the ignorance vote.

Yep and used WW2 demagoguery to do it.

I knew you would quote Harris. I don't know, for some people he's kind of a prophet. Yup, he's a scientist, but he's not speaking in his capacity as a scientist but as a philosopher, for lack of a better word.

I've made it pretty clear before, I don't give a shit what Harris thinks and I never understood the near religious adoration some people seem to offer him.

I studied history and had some courses in political sciences. I feel better qualified than Harris to talk about issues like that. And I would never dream about trying to educate Harris on his field of expertise. But when it comes to history or politics everyone seems to feel like an expert these days.

(November 18, 2016 at 7:42 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: Trump won the ignorance vote.

He won the apathetic complacency vote. Oh, look, he's endorsing one of my pet values, let's vote for him. Oh, nevermind, once he's in power he won't be as bad as he appeared. Oh, he's appointed staunch rightwingers, conspiracy nuts, racists and climate change deniers. He will never do what he said he would do.

(November 18, 2016 at 8:10 pm)abaris Wrote: I knew you would quote Harris. I don't know, for some people he's kind of a prophet. Yup, he's a scientist, but he's not speaking in his capacity as a scientist but as a philosopher, for lack of a better word.

I've made it pretty clear before, I don't give a shit what Harris thinks and I never understood the near religious adoration some people seem to offer him.

I studied history and had some courses in political sciences. I feel better qualified than Harris to talk about issues like that. And I would never dream about trying to educate Harris on his field of expertise. But when it comes to history or politics everyone seems to feel like an expert these days.

Don't get me wrong. When he talks about Christians and America he is dead right. When he talks about Islam he is also dead right. But when he dodges Buddhism as if it has no flaws, I want to mentally choke him.

I simply don't know why he is so stuck on it? He still has the same problems defending it as anyone else would with any other religion. He is still stuck with the evolutionary fact that evolution is much older and that we came from prior primates which he does accept thankfully. If it is their seeming ability to control their bodies and endure harsh things, the same can be said about training a Navy Seal. 

Harris is no different than any scientist, he does not deserve a pass simply because I agree with some things he says about science. Christians and Jews can also accept parts of science, but when they start trying to defend a club as being better than the other with science, that is where they fail, Sam too. If science COULD prove an ultimately true universal religion that person could win a Nobel Prize and get a patent on it.

I do like Sam, but his Buddhism fetish gives me a lip twitch.

@abaris
The racial apathy vote, no less, lol.   Not racist though, never racist, anything but racist. Whomever uses the word racist is as bad as a racist. Hell, they're probably racists.  

"Not a puppet, not the puppet, you're the puppet"