(December 5, 2016 at 3:54 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 5, 2016 at 3:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Not at all. The babies go to heaven, yes, but life is still an inherent human right and to take that away is awful. The parents then become guilty of that.

Seems to me, assuring a baby gets to heaven for eternity is much more important than 80 years of life.

Especially considering all the possible chances of them doing something that will get them sent to hell.

If you could assure them of 100% chance of going to heaven, as opposed to having some chance of them going to hell, wouldn't you?

The ends don't justify the means is a pretty fundamental Christian belief. A person may have the good intention of ensuring their kid gets to heaven, but that doesn't take away the fact that killing the innocent is still objective wrong.

(December 5, 2016 at 3:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 5, 2016 at 2:55 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: So, wouldn't it be better for parents to have abortions?

If babies get a free pass to Heaven, seems like the best thing to do for them. There sure are a lot of temptations in the modern world for a lot of people to get themselves sent to hell.

More and more people are leaving religion, after all.

Not at all. The babies go to heaven, yes, but life is still an inherent human right and to take that away is awful. The parents then become guilty of that.

I'm curious to know what you imagine these babies in heaven to be? Are they forever infants or fetuses? Is their "soul" somehow grown upon their arrival, or do they age in some sense while there?

Is any of this anything other than a sentimental fancy on the part of people who can't bear to think of babies and other children dying?

(December 5, 2016 at 4:29 pm)Crossless1 Wrote:

(December 5, 2016 at 3:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Not at all. The babies go to heaven, yes, but life is still an inherent human right and to take that away is awful. The parents then become guilty of that.

I'm curious to know what you imagine these babies in heaven to be? Are they forever infants or fetuses? Is their "soul" somehow grown upon their arrival, or do they age in some sense while there?

Is any of this anything other than a sentimental fancy on the part of people who can't bear to think of babies and other children dying?

Lol interesting question. 

There is no physical body in the afterlife, just souls, so I don't particularly imagine them in any way. I'll also add that Heaven/Hell is a state of being, not a particular place.

(December 5, 2016 at 4:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 5, 2016 at 3:54 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Seems to me, assuring a baby gets to heaven for eternity is much more important than 80 years of life.

Especially considering all the possible chances of them doing something that will get them sent to hell.

If you could assure them of 100% chance of going to heaven, as opposed to having some chance of them going to hell, wouldn't you?

The ends don't justify the means is a pretty fundamental Christian belief. A person may have the good intention of ensuring their kid gets to heaven, but that doesn't take away the fact that killing the innocent is still objective wrong.

I understand that, according to your beliefs, it would be wrong for YOU.

Then, the question becomes, why have children in the first place?

Think about it. You are bringing a 'soul' into existence, with the very real possibility that, during it's 80 year life, it might do something that will get it sent to hell.

Why take the chance at all that this will happen?

(November 22, 2016 at 6:44 pm)Balaco Wrote: Atheists, why do you reject the idea of God, and why should I? I know that your answers will include "there's no evidence" and all that, but please try to explain.

Yeah I love this one: "Tell me why should I be an atheist but don't use those typical arguments like 'There is no evidence that god exists'"

What, you don't care if God exists or not, you just believe?

OK here's an advice: watch documentary "Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God" because you will not only learn a lot about your religion, but it will also teach you not to censor yourself when it comes to Catholicism. It will probably make you an atheist.

(December 5, 2016 at 4:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The ends don't justify the means is a pretty fundamental Christian belief. A person may have the good intention of ensuring their kid gets to heaven, but that doesn't take away the fact that killing the innocent is still objective wrong.

How can babies go to heaven in Catholic doctrine? We all know you believe that people are born with original sin and that you think baptism is necessary for salvation. So how can fetus or baby go to heaven since they're not baptized? Are you making up your own version of Christianity there?

(December 5, 2016 at 4:47 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 5, 2016 at 4:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The ends don't justify the means is a pretty fundamental Christian belief. A person may have the good intention of ensuring their kid gets to heaven, but that doesn't take away the fact that killing the innocent is still objective wrong.

I understand that, according to your beliefs, it would be wrong for YOU.

Then, the question becomes, why have children in the first place?

Think about it. You are bringing a 'soul' into existence, with the very real possibility that, during it's 80 year life, it might do something that will get it sent to hell.

Why take the chance at all that this will happen?

(Quick comment on the bolded: this is a way over simplified way of putting it lol, but I'll go with it) 

I think it's still worth taking the chance. Especially when it's in our own power as parents to raise them as best we can to be good people. 

I mean, I could just as easily ask you the secular version of this question: There is a very real possibility that any person you bring into the world will be a murderer, a thief, a cheat, a rapist, a corrupt politician, etc etc etc. 

With that knowledge, why would you take the chance of having a kid? 

I imagine an atheist's answer will probably be very similar to mine.

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(December 5, 2016 at 4:49 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(December 5, 2016 at 4:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The ends don't justify the means is a pretty fundamental Christian belief. A person may have the good intention of ensuring their kid gets to heaven, but that doesn't take away the fact that killing the innocent is still objective wrong.

How can babies go to heaven in Catholic doctrine? We all know you believe that people are born with original sin and that you think baptism is necessary for salvation. So how can fetus or baby go to heaven since they're not baptized? Are you making up your own version of Christianity there?

I've discussed this in a different thread. Read my responses here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-45905-page-6.html

Particularly post 56.

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^Edited because I posted the wrong link lol.

(December 5, 2016 at 4:47 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 5, 2016 at 4:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The ends don't justify the means is a pretty fundamental Christian belief. A person may have the good intention of ensuring their kid gets to heaven, but that doesn't take away the fact that killing the innocent is still objective wrong.

I understand that, according to your beliefs, it would be wrong for YOU.

Then, the question becomes, why have children in the first place?

Think about it. You are bringing a 'soul' into existence, with the very real possibility that, during it's 80 year life, it might do something that will get it sent to hell.

Why take the chance at all that this will happen?

Absolutely. I already don't want to subject any new people to this world that don't have to be here. If I also thought they might end up getting some sort of eternal punishment, I'd have smashed my balls up with a brick as soon as possible.

(December 5, 2016 at 5:07 pm)robvalue Wrote:

(December 5, 2016 at 4:47 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: I understand that, according to your beliefs, it would be wrong for YOU.

Then, the question becomes, why have children in the first place?

Think about it. You are bringing a 'soul' into existence, with the very real possibility that, during it's 80 year life, it might do something that will get it sent to hell.

Why take the chance at all that this will happen?

Absolutely. I already don't want to subject any new people to this world that don't have to be here. If I also thought they might end up getting some sort of eternal punishment, I'd have smashed my balls up with a brick as soon as possible.

Duuuuude ouch. Not the diamond making machine.

(December 5, 2016 at 4:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 5, 2016 at 4:29 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: I'm curious to know what you imagine these babies in heaven to be? Are they forever infants or fetuses? Is their "soul" somehow grown upon their arrival, or do they age in some sense while there?

Is any of this anything other than a sentimental fancy on the part of people who can't bear to think of babies and other children dying?

Lol interesting question. 

There is no physical body in the afterlife, just souls, so I don't particularly imagine them in any way. I'll also add that Heaven/Hell is a state of being, not a particular place.

Lol. No, I don't suppose it is a particular place. As for it being a 'state of being', I suppose you mean that it is "real" in the same way your god is? You know, unfalsifiably defined/refined right out of existence but still claimed to be real? 

I believe the afterlife is very much real. I just think that it is an entirely different dimension that we cannot fully comprehend yet as human beings.