I thought Saint Anthony handled the lost and found department.

Kinda makes me wonder how I ever remember where I put my keys, with no god to remind me.

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(December 6, 2016 at 2:06 pm)Asmodee Wrote: First, the big one (I know it's more than one, but it's a general theme rather than a single question).  Miracles were obviously not rare in the Bible.  Why are they so rare now?  What purpose did they serve in the past that no longer needs served now?  Why did God change?

Not put to me but .. hahahahahah .. as if that would stop me.

I think it is like any other whopper. What was ordinary enough at the time just becomes more grand with every telling. By the time the feeding of the multitude gets committed to paper what might have started as five people noticing how content they'd been with so little food while passing an interesting afternoon with a charismatic guy becomes a miracle of magical proportions. These should be phased out or relegated to children's literature in the same vein as Santa.

(December 6, 2016 at 2:11 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(December 6, 2016 at 2:06 pm)Asmodee Wrote: First, the big one (I know it's more than one, but it's a general theme rather than a single question).  Miracles were obviously not rare in the Bible.  Why are they so rare now?  What purpose did they serve in the past that no longer needs served now?  Why did God change?

Not put to me but .. hahahahahah .. as if that would stop me.

I think it is like any other whopper.  What was ordinary enough at the time just becomes more grand with every telling.  By the time the feeding of the multitude gets committed to paper what might have started as five people noticing how content they'd been with so little food while passing an interesting afternoon with a charismatic guy becomes a miracle of magical proportions.  These should be phased out or relegated to children's literature in the same vein as Santa.

I could not agree more.  There is archeological evidence that the Biblical flood was actually a local, albeit catastrophic event.  I'm sure to the people at the time it was the "whole world".  But obviously none of them were forewarned, nor did they build a big-ass boat and load it up with animals, nor were all who told the story over the years sprung from the same family.  At least, not until you go back far enough to trace our original evolutionary ancestor.  Large evolutionary change does, after all, start with a single offspring, not an entire populous just poofing into existence.

(December 6, 2016 at 2:06 pm)Asmodee Wrote:

(December 6, 2016 at 1:20 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'd also like to clear up again that I do believe in miracles. However, I understand they are very rare, and the general consensus in my faith is that it is much more likely that God answers prayers by working through people rather than through supernatural intervention.  

If I lost my car keys, for example, I could pray for God to make them magically appear in front of me. Or I could pray for God's help in trying to remember where I put them, or in thinking of likely places I could look. 

But probably 99.9% of the time, when people lose their keys and ask God for help, they mean the latter.

Then maybe you could clear something up for me.  I've chatted with various other people on various forums, some of them Catholics, who believe every brisk breeze is a miracle and absolute proof that God is real.  That last Catholic I remember talking to pretty much accepted any and every claim of a miracle as absolute proof, even if it was so week that the Catholic Church would not recognize it as a miracle.  So I have two questions.

First, the big one (I know it's more than one, but it's a general theme rather than a single question).  Miracles were obviously not rare in the Bible.  Why are they so rare now?  What purpose did they serve in the past that no longer needs served now?  Why did God change?

I've never talked with anyone who thinks the breeze, in and of itself, is proof of God. So it's hard to comment on that first paragraph without talking to the person himself that said this. 

Now to answer your question. Miracles are not rare "in the bible" because that's pretty much what the bible is about lol. Supernatural happenings, God, etc etc. I don't take the OT stories as literal, real happenings, so it's pointless to comment on those. Most of the miracles described in the NT are attributed to miracles performed by Jesus during His life here. That's one person performing miracles out of the however many millions that were alive back then. I'd say in perspective miracles were still pretty rare.

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(December 6, 2016 at 2:06 pm)Asmodee Wrote: Second, what types of miracles do you believe happen today?  Are they anything like the big things of the past or are they now more subtle, more "undisprovable", if you will?  Again, why did God change?  Are there any specific miracles in modern times that you believe?  Are those miracles consistent with stories of miracles in the Bible?  For instance, every single miracle in the Bible had a clear purpose.  There was a clear reason behind every single one.  A statue crying, not so much.  So if miracles are not just weird things that happen which can't be explained empirically, again, why did God change?

A big one that happened not too long ago was the miracle of the sun in fatima. I think most Church approved miracles consist of apparitions and spontaneous healing of serious illnesses/disorders.

I don't believe miracles have changed, necessarily. Perhaps they were more necessary during early Christianity when the disciples were trying to spread the word, but I don't think this means God has changed. I guess you would have to ask that question to someone who takes a literal view of the OT stories.

(December 6, 2016 at 1:07 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(December 6, 2016 at 12:38 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Could you ask Him again for a pony?  Satan doesn't give me jack.

Occasionally He gives me a good parking spot

Come to think of it I did finally win a door prize this past year.  You don't suppose ...

(December 6, 2016 at 10:47 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(December 6, 2016 at 10:29 am)Drich Wrote: And AGAIN if prayers is the opposite of begging for favors,

But is isn't, so...  

according to Christ and the singular example of what a prayer is and is not. A prayer is Not a wishing cermony. Paul again later defines that as petitioning God. According to Christ a prayer is about learning to accept God's will not changing it.

Quote:Oh, you mean - it's more like a magic spell? Or a super power? Or like summoning Captain Planet?

did you read the aforementioned first page post? or are you trying to cop out of the discussion by defaulting to trivializing the subject?

Quote:Yeah, sport - the day I care to read your tortured apologetics and your convoluted, ad hoc pseudo-explanations of magical sh*t, will be the day Jesus comes... all over your face, neck and chest.

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So no. You did not read the message yet you still think your thoughts on the subject count for anything...

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(December 6, 2016 at 11:36 am)Emjay Wrote:

(December 5, 2016 at 11:10 am)Drich Wrote: Prayer is not about God knowing, It is about us acknowledging, and a willingness to change.

So what about speaking in tongues? I've always considered that a kind of prayer, in the sense that it is communicating with god, but in a language only he, but not the speaker, understands. What's the point of that?

According to Paul It's pointless. Unless there is someone there to interpret the gift of tongues only edifies the one person.. While that is not a bad thing it does nothing to help anyone but the person doing it..

14 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

6 Now, brothers,[a] if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

(December 6, 2016 at 2:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I've never talked with anyone who thinks the breeze, in and of itself, is proof of God. So it's hard to comment on that first paragraph without talking to the person himself that said this. 

I was being facetious.

(December 6, 2016 at 2:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Now to answer your question. Miracles are not rare "in the bible" because that's pretty much what the bible is about lol. Supernatural happenings, God, etc etc. I don't take the OT stories as literal, real happenings, so it's pointless to comment on those. Most of the miracles described in the NT are attributed to miracles performed by Jesus during His life here. That's one person performing miracles out of the however many millions that were alive back then. I'd say in perspective miracles were still pretty rare.

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Well, that brings up more questions. Do you accept all the miracles of Jesus as fact? Do you accept any miracles in the OT as fact? If no for either of those, how do you tell which is fact and which is fiction?

If all you take as fact is the miracles Jesus performed and, as you said, that was one person performing miracles out of how many millions of people alive, then what makes you think that miracles happen today? Do you just accept the church's judgement on that?

(December 6, 2016 at 2:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 6, 2016 at 2:06 pm)Asmodee Wrote: Second, what types of miracles do you believe happen today?  Are they anything like the big things of the past or are they now more subtle, more "undisprovable", if you will?  Again, why did God change?  Are there any specific miracles in modern times that you believe?  Are those miracles consistent with stories of miracles in the Bible?  For instance, every single miracle in the Bible had a clear purpose.  There was a clear reason behind every single one.  A statue crying, not so much.  So if miracles are not just weird things that happen which can't be explained empirically, again, why did God change?

A big one that happened not too long ago was the miracle of the sun in fatima. I think most Church approved miracles consist of apparitions and spontaneous healing of serious illnesses/disorders.

You can't name a single miracle, Old or New Testament, which didn't have a clear, inarguable purpose. Do you really thing the sun thing in 1917 had a "clear, inarguable purpose"? What was that purpose? It seems like the only purpose would be to convince people that miracles are real, but that doesn't jive with the teachings of Jesus, who refused to perform miracles just to prove they were real.

(December 6, 2016 at 2:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't believe miracles have changed, necessarily. Perhaps they were more necessary during early Christianity when the disciples were trying to spread the word, but I don't think this means God has changed. I guess you would have to ask that question to someone who takes a literal view of the OT stories.

Then let's talk about the NT only. You're saying that "need" has changed, as I understand it. Miracles were "more necessary" during early Christianity. In what way has need changed? What was the "need" for miracles back then? Was it to convince people? Why is there no need to convince people today? Was the "need" just enough to get the ball rolling on Christianity? Then why are there still miracles today if that need no longer exists?

But the most obvious thing for me is that no miracle in the Bible ever was done without a clear purpose, a reason. Not one. Yet the "miracles" of today are more like parlor tricks. The colors in the sky, that's what passes for a "miracle" these days? That seems petty compared to healing the sick. It seems petty compared to turning water into wine or walking on water or feeding the masses with very little food or raising the dead. You put "colors in the sky" in a lineup with all the miracles in the Bible and this one seems laughable by comparison. There isn't a single miracle in the Bible anywhere that I know of that is this petty and pointless. Walking on water is about the most petty miracle I can think of from the Bible and that one is STILL pretty impressive. And it had two clear purposes. The first was to convince the particular follower he was fishing for, the second was to teach about faith, as you read on in the story.

I'm sorry for all the questions. I'm thinking that this subject is just too big for a casual conversation. It's just rare that I get to talk to a Catholic who seems even a little reasonable or intelligent (no offense, but I've talked to some REALLY dumb Catholics and that's most of them I've talked to). If you don't want to answer a slew of questions, many of which you've likely addressed before, I completely understand.

To give you an idea what the previous Catholics I've talked to are like, I'll give you some examples. The first was an unwed pregnant teen who I heard say, "I can't use birth control because I'm Catholic". Really? Wasn't there also some rule about sex before marriage, you dumb twit? I got a second cousin out of that one. Another thought that "proof" God was real could be seen in the sun and in babies. He also thought he was more open minded than me because his beliefs were absolute, even though I was agnostic at the time. Still another, who also mentioned Fatima to me, believes in every third world claim of miracles. Some BS about blood liquefying on command. It has all the hallmarks of a hoax. There are about 20 known examples, almost all from the same area, tests on one sample proved it would liquefy at a certain temperature suggesting it's a clever mix of wax and oil and the Catholic Church does not recognize it. Still another told me that if he stopped believing in God he wouldn't work for a living. He would just kill people and take what he wanted. No, he wouldn't, because not only was he just a tiny guy, he was also one of the most decent human beings I have ever known. But when he tried to imagine "not believing" in God all he could muster was "rejecting" God in his head. So that's where I'm coming from and why I'm so anxious to talk to a Catholic who's at least somewhat intelligent (not that you are only "somewhat intelligent", just that I don't know you that well, but you seem intelligent so far).

(December 6, 2016 at 3:20 pm)Drich Wrote: according to Christ and the singular example of what a prayer is and is not. A prayer is Not a wishing cermony. Paul again later defines that as petitioning God. According to Christ a prayer is about learning to accept God's will not changing it.

Sure - god is made up, so you get to make up his will too. Which is why - conveniently - most gods seem to want exactly the same things, their primitive, dim-witted and fearful "followers" do.

(December 6, 2016 at 3:20 pm)Drich Wrote: So no. You did not read the message yet you still think your thoughts on the subject count for anything...

Lol... Only as much as yours does. All you have is myths and wishful thinking. Anybody can make up this sh*t - it's not like Jizzles is going to prove me wrong now, is he? You can wax lyrical about the "proper" understanding of prayer, but at the end of the day - you're just some geek, mumbling to himself and making up fantastical rationalizations for this irrational behavior.

Get over yourself - nobody gives a sh*t about your sorry theological efforts - even if some christians will humor you, because - you know - Jeezles might be listening. Most of people on the forum just make fun of you and you're too dumb to notice.

Quote:according to Christ

No, dripshit....you mean according to the sleazebags who invented "christ."