and an author working over some oral tale that has been in circulation for 500-1000 years and banging it into shape to fit his existing ideas on God and nation isn't a process real conducive to capturing the accuracy of the original experience

(January 12, 2017 at 12:35 pm)Rhythm Wrote: An attribution of genesis is impossible without reference to content.  We can't know the name or names of the people who came up with that gem, the content of the story, however, speaks volumes about them.  The same is true of every book in the bible.  Understanding the content (and I sure as hell don't mean that the way the faithful mean it, lol) is the only way to approach the who and why of the originators.  For another example, the "prophetic" books of the OT are gibberish if we take the content to be an attempt at prophecy in the religious sense.  As social commentary of then-current political realities, or the ideological affiliations of the author, they're immensely informative.

The narratives do hold water, it's just not the water that the religious think they're trucking (nor is it the water that many atheists, responding explicitly to religious claims, are objecting to). /2cents

Cool. Fair enough... I know content can be informative of author as well, but I was hoping to start at the top of the root as it were... if that makes sense; dismiss that which can be dismissed easily without much further inquiry, and then what remains, analyze more thoroughly, but always working outwards from source as highest priority to content as lowest priority. A bit like how I do my tidying (KonMari if you've ever heard of that)... discard everything unless it gives you 'joy'... so drill down to what's important in your life and get rid of everything else.

So have you done a lot of this then? Taken a reductionistic/reverse engineering approach to the Bible?

Quote:Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy = Moses - 1400 B.C. (prophet)

So "moses" wrote of his own death, huh asswipe.

Dripshit, you redefine stupid on a daily basis.

@

Quote:Prophets were men in the OT who communed with God directly.

Or they were astute observers of conflicts between warring states.  I mean, ofc, that or they spoke directly to an all powerful god...both are equally credible......

(January 12, 2017 at 1:02 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy = Moses - 1400 B.C. (prophet)

So "moses" wrote of his own death, huh asswipe.

Dripshit, you redefine stupid on a daily basis.

And, of course, we know that Moses wrote Deuteronomy, which was "discovered" at a convenient moment, because . . . why?   

(January 12, 2017 at 1:01 pm)Emjay Wrote: Cool. Fair enough... I know content can be informative of author as well, but I was hoping to start at the top of the root as it were... if that makes sense; dismiss that which can be dismissed easily without much further inquiry, and then what remains, analyze more thoroughly, but always working outwards from source as highest priority to content as lowest priority. A bit like how I do my tidying (KonMari if you've ever heard of that)... discard everything unless it gives you 'joy'... so drill down to what's important in your life and get rid of everything else.

So have you done a lot of this then? Taken a reductionistic/reverse engineering approach to the Bible?

The trouble in that approach is that what you deem easily dismissable may be the most informative part.  When it comes to myth and legend, the content often is the root.  Early efforts at anthropology failed so often on those grounds that it became methodological to dispense with the notion that the observer could reliably determine what was and was not easily dismissable.  

Have I done alot of it?  As a lifelong hobby and interest, sure.  Read alot of books, took some courses, married an anthropologist with a big mouth.  I'm definitely not the guy to write a treatise on the subject, just knowledgeable enough to understand and appreciate the field. Some fairly elaborate mythologies have a solid foundation in known events and cultural practices. On their own, they seem like easily dismissable things.....did the gods really come down in celestial craft and bestow gifts on the people of Tana? Nope. Did the navy use their islands as refueling depots...sure did.

(January 12, 2017 at 1:10 pm)Crossless1 Wrote:

(January 12, 2017 at 1:02 pm)Minimalist Wrote: So "moses" wrote of his own death, huh asswipe.

Dripshit, you redefine stupid on a daily basis.

And, of course, we know that Moses wrote Deuteronomy, which was "discovered" at a convenient moment, because . . . why?   

That's the story that the bible itself tells.  It is highly suspect.

We have no indication of anything recognizable as "jews" in Canaan prior to the Persian period.

(January 12, 2017 at 12:51 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Read Bart Ehrman's "Jesus Interrupted."  Best source for the bullshit that makes up the fucking NT.

Thanks for the recommendation Now bought for my Kindle

---

(January 12, 2017 at 1:13 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(January 12, 2017 at 1:01 pm)Emjay Wrote: Cool. Fair enough... I know content can be informative of author as well, but I was hoping to start at the top of the root as it were... if that makes sense; dismiss that which can be dismissed easily without much further inquiry, and then what remains, analyze more thoroughly, but always working outwards from source as highest priority to content as lowest priority. A bit like how I do my tidying (KonMari if you've ever heard of that)... discard everything unless it gives you 'joy'... so drill down to what's important in your life and get rid of everything else.

So have you done a lot of this then? Taken a reductionistic/reverse engineering approach to the Bible?

The trouble in that approach is that what you deem easily dismissable may be the most informative part.  When it comes to myth and legend, the content often is the root.  Early efforts at anthropology failed so often on those grounds that it became methodological to dispense with the notion that the observer could reliably determine what was and was not easily dismissable.  

Have I done alot of it?  As a lifelong hobby and interest, sure.  Read alot of books, took some courses, married an anthropologist with a big mouth.  I'm definitely not the guy to write a treatise on the subject, just knowledgeable enough to understand and appreciate the field.

Fair enough... advice duly noted and taken on board. So scrap what I said before; content can't be ignored. It's very interesting what you're saying... content often is the root.

Lifelong interest... that's all I wanted to know

A little sample of what you have to look forward to:

Quote:A very large percentage of seminarians are completely blind-sided
by the historical-critical method. They come in with the expectation
of learning the pious truths of the Bible so that they can pass
them along in their sermons, as their own pastors have done for
them. Nothing prepares them for historical criticism. To their surprise
they learn, instead of material for sermons, all the results of
what historical critics have established on the basis of centuries of
research. The Bible is filled with discrepancies, many of them irreconcilable
contradictions. Moses did not write the Pentateuch (the
first five books of the Old Testament) and Matthew, Mark, Luke,
and John did not write the Gospels. There are other books that did
not make it into the Bible that at one time or another were considered
canonical—other Gospels, for example, allegedly written by
Jesus’ followers Peter, Thomas, and Mary. The Exodus probably did
not happen as described in the Old Testament. The conquest of the
Promised Land is probably based on legend. The Gospels are at odds
on numerous points and contain nonhistorical material.

pgs 5-6

(January 12, 2017 at 1:15 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(January 12, 2017 at 1:10 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: And, of course, we know that Moses wrote Deuteronomy, which was "discovered" at a convenient moment, because . . . why?   

That's the story that the bible itself tells.  It is highly suspect.

Yes, suspect as hell. Judah -- a poor backwater shit hole -- supposedly has a period of relative stability, having watched the apparently wealthier and more powerful Israel get swallowed whole by the Assyrians. How to account for this? Sin and idolatry, of course. Then the scroll is "found": a win/win for Josiah and the priests so long as they can sell its authenticity as a copy of something written by the hand of Moses. Then comes the cultic purge and a consolidation of power.

The scent of self-serving bullshit continues to waft through the ages.