Evidence for the type of claim you're making must be testable, verifiable and reproducible.

If you've got some, please produce it. If not, quit whining at us because we won't accept your bullshit as anything other than what it is.

I'll put it this way.

In the story, the Judeo-xtian god made a big deal out of stepping from behind the curtain, on many occasion; often in a very showbiz way. It appeared and spoke to Adam and Eve, parted the Reed Sea, appeared directly to Moses, wrestled with Jacob, and so on. Even when its deadbeat son popped up, a booming voice from the sky bigged him up in front of witnesses.

Let's see some of that. It'd be a start, at least.

(January 14, 2017 at 8:45 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I'll put it this way.

In the story, the Judeo-xtian god made a big deal out of stepping from behind the curtain, on many occasion; often in a very showbiz way. It appeared and spoke to Adam and Eve, parted the Reed Sea, appeared directly to Moses, wrestled with Jacob, and so on. Even when its deadbeat son popped up, a booming voice from the sky bigged him up in front of witnesses.

Let's see some of that. It'd be a start, at least.

And all I asked for was a lamb. What the hell is wrong with me?

I blame the dogs.

Has a believer demonstrated the existence of god yet in this thread?

I'm gonna guess no. Yes, I should read all the posts, but if it's anything like all the rest before this one, I feel quite confident that God hasn't finally appeared on page 4 to let me know of his holy fucking awesomeness.

Why does the most significant, powerful, knowledgable and able being need your help just to get us to notice it?

I'm giving it a load of characteristics there that you haven't stated, but I assume that's what you'd say if you did try and define it. Feel free to correct me.

Assuming again that it had some hand in my creation, why has it given me these blinders that make its very existence (particularly the biblical God) seem not just unlikely but farcical? Seems like God needs to take a good long look at itself before blaming us for his own failures.

And more importantly... why should I give a shit? You haven't covered this yet. I'm also an apatheist, meaning I don't care whether "God" exists or not. If I found out it did, it would make no difference to me. If it wants to interact with me, I assume it has my details.

(January 14, 2017 at 8:45 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I'll put it this way.

In the story, the Judeo-xtian god made a big deal out of stepping from behind the curtain, on many occasion; often in a very showbiz way. It appeared and spoke to Adam and Eve, parted the Reed Sea, appeared directly to Moses, wrestled with Jacob, and so on. Even when its deadbeat son popped up, a booming voice from the sky bigged him up in front of witnesses.

Let's see some of that. It'd be a start, at least.

The strange thing is as soon as Moses left the room, the people who had supposedly received direct evidence that there was a god and it was Yahweh, started to believe in another god that had not shown itself etc leading Moses to massacre thousands of them.

Yes, the burden of proof is up to the believer. That's how the burden of proof works.

Evidence is anything that is concordant with and exclusively indicative of one conclusion.

But before you can get there you need to define your god clearly. And shifting that onto us by saying "well what is the god you don't believe in?" Quite frankly there are a lot of god concepts. Some I don't believe in because they are logically impossible. Some I don't believe in because there is no reason to think they are anything more than myths. Some are just stupid metaphors for real things.

You say you believe in "the god of the bible" and I say that's not clear enough. Because if you read it VERY literally god is an immortal human living in the sky. Yes, that is a legitimate reading of the old testament. There are also people who define the god of the bible as a magical disembodied mind. And there are some who believe something in between. So what is it?

But you also say that here you just want to know what evidence would be sufficient to establish the existence of a creator of the universe. Too vague. Let's say I believe that a baby and a dog got thrown outside the universe during a botched time travel event and created the universe by trying to get back in. There's video of that. Is that sufficient? Is that what you mean? Or maybe a pan-galactic scientist named Larry in another universe created our universe in a contained experiment. Is that what you mean? Or maybe universe-pooping black holes in another universe created this one. Is that what you would label as god?

A definition of god needs to be established first. Then you can present your evidence of it.

(January 15, 2017 at 5:42 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: The strange thing is as soon as Moses left the room, the people who had supposedly received direct evidence that there was a god and it was Yahweh, started to believe in another god that had not shown itself etc leading Moses to massacre thousands of them.

Which makes it really confusing when a Christian says that God can't prove himself because then you would have no choice but to believe and it would make faith unnecessary.  That wasn't so with the Egyptians, the Jews, even the apostles, but somehow it's magically true now.  I am so sick of all the stupid excuses.  Why can't a theist just come out and say, "I don't have any reason to believe, I just believe, and I can therefore not offer you any reason to believe."  No, instead they have to make excuses, rewrite history, pretend to have an iron-clad case in every dumbass logical "proof" and constantly babble incoherently while using words like "proof" and "fact".

(January 16, 2017 at 6:36 pm)Asmodee Wrote:

(January 15, 2017 at 5:42 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: The strange thing is as soon as Moses left the room, the people who had supposedly received direct evidence that there was a god and it was Yahweh, started to believe in another god that had not shown itself etc leading Moses to massacre thousands of them.

Which makes it really confusing when a Christian says that God can't prove himself because then you would have no choice but to believe and it would make faith unnecessary.  That wasn't so with the Egyptians, the Jews, even the apostles, but somehow it's magically true now.

Not magically.... hypocritically.

Quote: I am so sick of all the stupid excuses.  Why can't a theist just come out and say, "I don't have any reason to believe, I just believe, and I can therefore not offer you any reason to believe."  No, instead they have to make excuses, rewrite history, pretend to have an iron-clad case in every dumbass logical "proof" and constantly babble incoherently while using words like "proof" and "fact".

They need to use those terms to make it true to themselves.
It's not in vain that the term "delusion" has been employed as a way to describe them...