(February 14, 2017 at 1:06 pm)Asmodee Wrote:

(February 14, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Godschild Wrote:

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Looks to me as if you didn't read my first post to you, if you had you would of seen that I said you only have complete free will in one area. As l've said in other threads, outside of that anything could happen. God has providence over His creation.

GC

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Please enlighten me.  What "one area" do we have complete free will over?

I made it very clear, I'm not sure why you can't understand what I said. Here it is one more time, the only true will you have is choosing Christ or rejecting Him, outside that all bets are off.
I do not see how I can make this any clearer.

GC

A perfect being wouldn't make a world at all. They'd be so perfect they would be all that would be required to exist. In fact they wouldn't do anything, they'd be changeless. Nothing would need to happen. Everything would be perfect.

(February 14, 2017 at 2:31 pm)Crossless1 Wrote:

(February 14, 2017 at 2:19 pm)SteveII Wrote: You say there is no evidence for Free Will. Isn't your conclusion that there is no Free Will based on naturalism--a philosophical position, and not based on science or other concrete 'evidence'? Why should I believe your ideology that there is nothing but natural properties and causes when I have very good reason to suspect there is more than that? In case you are going to ask what are my reasons, I would reply that Naturalism does not address why:

a. God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.
b. God is the best explanation of the origin of the universe.
c. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.
d. God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.
e. God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.

Nice poisoning of the well. I've come to expect nothing less from you.

And 'explanation'? You mean other way of saying, "I don't know," while slipping in my favorite book character, Yahweh, right?

Is there something wrong with my reasoning that the conclusion that there is no Free Will is not based on 'evidence' but based on a worldview (metaphysical naturalism)? Further, I think that worldview to be lacking in explanatory powers and therefore inadequate to be used as a reason to deny the conclusion that Free Will exists.

Quote:God has providence over His creation.

Which makes your god a scumbag.  Why would you worship such a despicable being if it did exist?  I think the problem is you.

(February 14, 2017 at 2:32 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(February 14, 2017 at 2:19 pm)SteveII Wrote: You say there is no evidence for Free Will. Isn't your conclusion that there is no Free Will based on naturalism--a philosophical position, and not based on science or other concrete 'evidence'? Why should I believe your ideology that there is nothing but natural properties and causes when I have very good reason to suspect there is more than that? In case you are going to ask what are my reasons, I would reply that Naturalism does not address why:

a. God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.
b. God is the best explanation of the origin of the universe.
c. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.
d. God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.
e. God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.

Those are some bold assertions. Got anything other than fantasy magic to back them up?

It was not my intention to hijack the thread with one or more Natural Theology arguments. I was questioning the reasoning Aroura used to conclude there is no evidence that Free Will exists. It seems to me that that is a metaphysical claim based on an assumption of Naturalism--which, in the absence of other reasons, is just begging the question.

(February 14, 2017 at 2:18 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Ahh, but even then the concept of imperfection existed... Hence why the Bible states that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

But the concept was in God's mind only, because of God's omnipresence He knew what imperfection was and it existed to Him only. If He had decided not to create the universe imperfection would have come into being.

GC

(February 14, 2017 at 1:22 am)Godschild Wrote:

(February 13, 2017 at 10:57 pm)Aroura Wrote: So basically, all of you, 5 answering so far, depend entirely on the notion of freewill to explain pretty much everything. Quite the loophole it provides.

So this thread is destined to turn into yet another thread on freewill, and how it magically explains everything, even though there's as much evidence for it as there is for God, which is to say none. Your god delusion is dependent on a grand illusion, lol.

Looks like you would see that free will is a deep rooted part of Christianity, especially when all the Christians bring it up upfront. You don't like it because you either don't understand it or you can find no argument against it.

GC

I've clearly said that I don't believe in free-will at all. I've got a lot of arguments against it. It isn't magic that works in some areas and not in others.  Either we have it in some form, or we don't.  The evidence says we don't (unless you redefine freewill to mean unrestrained desires that are still dictated by prior events, which some people do, and call themselves Compatibilists).

(Why would I not believe in something I can find no argument against? Wouldn't that actually be I believe in it?  I suspect you don't understand it and have no argument against it. If you do have an argument against it, why do you still believe in it? lol. Project much?)
The kind most common Christians seem to rely on, which would be called Libertarian Free Will, and is widely decried as impossible to exist.
http://www.theopedia.com/libertarian-free-will

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(February 14, 2017 at 2:19 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(February 13, 2017 at 10:57 pm)Aroura Wrote: So basically, all of you, 5 answering so far, depend entirely on the notion of freewill to explain pretty much everything. Quite the loophole it provides.

So this thread is destined to turn into yet another thread on freewill, and how it magically explains everything, even though there's as much evidence for it as there is for God, which is to say none. Your god delusion is dependent on a grand illusion, lol.

You say there is no evidence for Free Will. Isn't your conclusion that there is no Free Will based on naturalism--a philosophical position, and not based on science or other concrete 'evidence'? Why should I believe your ideology that there is nothing but natural properties and causes when I have very good reason to suspect there is more than that? In case you are going to ask what are my reasons, I would reply that Naturalism does not address why:

a. God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.
b. God is the best explanation of the origin of the universe.
c. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.
d. God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.
e. God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.

a. no it isn't, it's overly complicated and only raises more difficult questions.
b. no it isn't, it's overly complicated and only raises more difficult questions.
c. no it isn't, it's overly complicated and only raises more difficult questions.
d. no it isn't, it's overly complicated and only raises more difficult questions.
e. no it isn't, it's overly complicated and only raises more difficult questions.

Determinism is not a philosophical position any more than atheism is.  I just don't believe in it, as there is no scientific evidence it exists.  I'm an a-free-will-ist.  
You assert it exists, much like God, so it's on you to show me evidence that it does. You also assert there is something aside from the natural, so that's on you too.

Show me evidence of a choice made that was not affected by prior causes, ever, in all of human history. Go ahead, I'll just wait right here........

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(February 14, 2017 at 2:54 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: A perfect being wouldn't make a world at all. They'd be so perfect they would be all that would be required to exist. In fact they wouldn't do anything, they'd be changeless. Nothing would need to happen. Everything would be perfect.

Haha, this is so true. 
Christians, tripped up by their own definition of God again.  

Is he perfect, YES, but he does imperfect things.
Is he Omnipotent, YES but he cannot create perfection.
Is he Omniescent, YES, but somehow we still have free-will (even if it's just to chose to love him).
Is he Omnibenevolent, YES, he didn't create evil, just the free-will to chose evil (so I guess humans created evil?  But he created us, so,this argument just always falls down).

The honest answers would be no to all, but not of them are intellectually honest enough with themselves to realize that.

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(February 14, 2017 at 3:06 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(February 14, 2017 at 2:32 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Those are some bold assertions. Got anything other than fantasy magic to back them up?

It was not my intention to hijack the thread with one or more Natural Theology arguments. I was questioning the reasoning Aroura used to conclude there is no evidence that Free Will exists. It seems to me that that is a metaphysical claim based on an assumption of Naturalism--which, in the absence of other reasons, is just begging the question.

And no, you don't get to shift the burden of proof.
You claim it exists.  You get to show us evidence for why it DOES exist. 
I don't have to prove it doesn't. 

Again, I'll be waiting right here for that evidence.....

(February 14, 2017 at 10:40 am)Asmodee Wrote:

(February 14, 2017 at 1:22 am)Godschild Wrote: Looks like you would see that free will is a deep rooted part of Christianity, especially when all the Christians bring it up upfront. You don't like it because you either don't understand it or you can find no argument against it.

GC

Oh, there are arguments against it aplenty.  First, free will is a later concept, not something which actually made it into the Bible.  The Bible never even hints that this is a thing.  Quite the opposite, God freely tampered with free will in the Bible.  When she really wanted to punish people for ding bad she "hardened Pharaoh's heart" to make sure he would do bad so she could punish all the little babies in Egypt.  The God of the Bible certainly doesn't hold free will as this sacred pinnacle his followers today do.

And then there's the big argument against it.  If free will is so important, why will it no longer exist when you get to Heaven?  If free will is so important to God then why is the destination sans-free will?  I've never heard any Christian say that they think you will have the ability to sin in Heaven.  So right now free will is the most important thing ever, but in Heaven it will be utterly unimportant?  How about this as an alternate explanation.  Given that free will is not mentioned in the Bible at all, that God herself tampers with it as if it's meaningless and that it will no longer exist in Heaven, isn't it possible that free will is really nothing more than a convenient excuse to throw out when your brain just isn't limber enough to do the real mental gymnastics it takes to excuse the idiocy and contradictions in your beliefs?  Because I'm thinking that's the answer right there.

First, it does not follow that if Free Will is important in this life, it must be important in the next. Second, Free Will for the sake of Free Will is not what God measures as important in this life, it is what you do with the Free Will--choosing God. If you achieved this, the purpose of Free Will has been complete. 

And Free Will is certainly throughout the Bible. Even with your objection that God tampers with it...isn't that just further proof that it exists?

(February 14, 2017 at 2:50 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(February 14, 2017 at 1:06 pm)Asmodee Wrote: Please enlighten me.  What "one area" do we have complete free will over?

I made it very clear, I'm not sure why you can't understand what I said. Here it is one more time, the only true will you have is choosing Christ or rejecting Him, outside that all bets are off.
I do not see how I can make this any clearer.

GC

Christ, would you relax?  I didn't remember you saying that.  I'm sure you remember every word of every conversation you've ever had, but I can barely remember what day of the week it is some days.  Which is why I asked for qualification.  Now it is clear what you are saying.

What you are saying is that free will is both vitally important and not very important at all.  When Jesus comes back, it won't exist.  In Heaven or Hell you will no longer be able to make that choice, so long-term, God really doesn't care that much about free will.

And before Jesus existed, free will didn't exist.  Nobody could choose to accept or reject a savior before he existed and nobody was expected to.  So, early on, free will was also not at all important to God.

So, is free will an important concept or is it not?  Because you talk as if it is, but your description of it says otherwise.  It certainly doesn't look like something God cares much about, given that it is to exist for only a couple thousand years out of all of eternity.  Hell, even if you go by the 13.7 billion years of the universe, or even the 6,000 years morons think the universe existed there has been more time already without free will than there ever will be with it.

I think you are a bit confused as to the nature of free will.  Free will is the ability to act freely according to my own will.  What you're talking about is the ability to make one single, extremely specific choice.  I don't know what you think "free will" is, but if I chain you up in my basement and give you the choice to perform fellatio on me or be violently murdered, that is not "free will".  You are a slave.  Just because I give you a choice between two things I have not given you "free will".  You grossly misunderstand the very basic meaning of the concept.

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(February 14, 2017 at 3:45 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(February 14, 2017 at 10:40 am)Asmodee Wrote: Oh, there are arguments against it aplenty.  First, free will is a later concept, not something which actually made it into the Bible.  The Bible never even hints that this is a thing.  Quite the opposite, God freely tampered with free will in the Bible.  When she really wanted to punish people for ding bad she "hardened Pharaoh's heart" to make sure he would do bad so she could punish all the little babies in Egypt.  The God of the Bible certainly doesn't hold free will as this sacred pinnacle his followers today do.

And then there's the big argument against it.  If free will is so important, why will it no longer exist when you get to Heaven?  If free will is so important to God then why is the destination sans-free will?  I've never heard any Christian say that they think you will have the ability to sin in Heaven.  So right now free will is the most important thing ever, but in Heaven it will be utterly unimportant?  How about this as an alternate explanation.  Given that free will is not mentioned in the Bible at all, that God herself tampers with it as if it's meaningless and that it will no longer exist in Heaven, isn't it possible that free will is really nothing more than a convenient excuse to throw out when your brain just isn't limber enough to do the real mental gymnastics it takes to excuse the idiocy and contradictions in your beliefs?  Because I'm thinking that's the answer right there.

First, it does not follow that if Free Will is important in this life, it must be important in the next. Second, Free Will for the sake of Free Will is not what God measures as important in this life, it is what you do with the Free Will--choosing God. If you achieved this, the purpose of Free Will has been complete. 

And Free Will is certainly throughout the Bible. Even with your objection that God tampers with it...isn't that just further proof that it exists?

My objection that God tampers with it was simply a way of pointing out that it wasn't apparently that important.  Pharaoh was not given the opportunity to "choose God".

Where, in the Bible, does it in any way mention "free will"?  Yes, you can choose or reject God, but again, that is a single choice, not an overall "free will" theme.

And quick note, the definition of "free will" the two of you are using doesn't match.  On says it's "choosing Christ", the other "choosing God".  It's almost as if you guys are making this shit up as you go along.  Oh wait...YOU ARE!

Divine Perfection means that God is the complete fullness of actuality in which there is no potential and whose existence is absolutely necessary. By definition any created being had, a one time, only potential existence and its continued possible existence remains contingent. Therefore, no created being could be perfect in the same way that God is.