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RE: Why would a perfect being make an imperfect world?
February 13, 2017 at 10:57 pm
(This post was last modified: February 13, 2017 at 10:58 pm by Aroura.)
So basically, all of you, 5 answering so far, depend entirely on the notion of freewill to explain pretty much everything. Quite the loophole it provides.
So this thread is destined to turn into yet another thread on freewill, and how it magically explains everything, even though there's as much evidence for it as there is for God, which is to say none. Your god delusion is dependent on a grand illusion, lol.
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RE: Why would a perfect being make an imperfect world?
February 13, 2017 at 11:27 pm
I always found it amusing that a second century Greco-Roman pagan philosopher had a higher opinion of "god" than these idiot jesus freaks we have around here.
"God does not inflict correction on the world as if he were some unskilled laborer who is incapable of building something properly the first time around; God has no need to purify what he has built by means of a flood or a conflagration (as they teach)."
Celsus, c 180 AD
Of course, Celsus considered xtians to be a bunch of ignorant shits. Some things never change.
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RE: Why would a perfect being make an imperfect world?
February 13, 2017 at 11:47 pm
(This post was last modified: February 13, 2017 at 11:47 pm by ignoramus.)
Hehe ...you might be right Min...
God's got the technology to get Mary pregnant via remote control and to get his son to walk on water, but somehow he just can't work out how to stop the Arabs from fucking goats!
(Must be a very technical issue which is beyong his paygrade?)
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: Why would a perfect being make an imperfect world?
February 14, 2017 at 1:22 am
(February 13, 2017 at 10:57 pm)Aroura Wrote: So basically, all of you, 5 answering so far, depend entirely on the notion of freewill to explain pretty much everything. Quite the loophole it provides.
So this thread is destined to turn into yet another thread on freewill, and how it magically explains everything, even though there's as much evidence for it as there is for God, which is to say none. Your god delusion is dependent on a grand illusion, lol.
Looks like you would see that free will is a deep rooted part of Christianity, especially when all the Christians bring it up upfront. You don't like it because you either don't understand it or you can find no argument against it.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Why would a perfect being make an imperfect world?
February 14, 2017 at 10:40 am
(February 14, 2017 at 1:22 am)Godschild Wrote: (February 13, 2017 at 10:57 pm)Aroura Wrote: So basically, all of you, 5 answering so far, depend entirely on the notion of freewill to explain pretty much everything. Quite the loophole it provides.
So this thread is destined to turn into yet another thread on freewill, and how it magically explains everything, even though there's as much evidence for it as there is for God, which is to say none. Your god delusion is dependent on a grand illusion, lol.
Looks like you would see that free will is a deep rooted part of Christianity, especially when all the Christians bring it up upfront. You don't like it because you either don't understand it or you can find no argument against it.
GC
Oh, there are arguments against it aplenty. First, free will is a later concept, not something which actually made it into the Bible. The Bible never even hints that this is a thing. Quite the opposite, God freely tampered with free will in the Bible. When she really wanted to punish people for ding bad she "hardened Pharaoh's heart" to make sure he would do bad so she could punish all the little babies in Egypt. The God of the Bible certainly doesn't hold free will as this sacred pinnacle his followers today do.
And then there's the big argument against it. If free will is so important, why will it no longer exist when you get to Heaven? If free will is so important to God then why is the destination sans-free will? I've never heard any Christian say that they think you will have the ability to sin in Heaven. So right now free will is the most important thing ever, but in Heaven it will be utterly unimportant? How about this as an alternate explanation. Given that free will is not mentioned in the Bible at all, that God herself tampers with it as if it's meaningless and that it will no longer exist in Heaven, isn't it possible that free will is really nothing more than a convenient excuse to throw out when your brain just isn't limber enough to do the real mental gymnastics it takes to excuse the idiocy and contradictions in your beliefs? Because I'm thinking that's the answer right there.
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RE: Why would a perfect being make an imperfect world?
February 14, 2017 at 11:22 am
Quote:Looks like you would see that free will is a deep rooted part of Christianity
Of course it is. You need it to explain why your god is such a scumbag.
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RE: Why would a perfect being make an imperfect world?
February 14, 2017 at 11:26 am
(February 14, 2017 at 1:22 am)Godschild Wrote: Looks like you would see that free will is a deep rooted part of Christianity, especially when all the Christians bring it up upfront. Hardly, a significant number of christian ideologies specifically and categorically deny it's very existence.
Quote:You don't like it because you either don't understand it or you can find no argument against it.
GC
Take it up with your brothers in christ. You leverage it as an excuse, they have no need for such heresies whatsoever.
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RE: Why would a perfect being make an imperfect world?
February 14, 2017 at 11:34 am
(February 13, 2017 at 5:29 pm)Socrates Wrote: (February 13, 2017 at 4:20 pm)Drich Wrote: Well one, God created everything perfectly..
didn't start out that way. He simply allowed our natures to have a say
Again, he didn't.
Free will does not enter the equation. Sin did. Sin being that which is not is God's expressed will for us. You may see this as imperfection, God sees it as being incomplete. So why does God allow us to be incomplete? To give those who want to be complete time they need to grow into God's expressed will for us. But in a perfect world would a mistake be possible? You say the world was perfect but the beings that reside in it are imperfect. Wouldn't the beings be part of the world aswell and if they are imperfect the world they reside in can't be perfect either. Why would a perfect being put imperfect beings in a perfect world, he would know full well the imperfect beings would ruin the perfect world and it all falls apart from there.
But again what makes you think any of what happened was a mistake? God placing the tree of Knowledge in the center of the garden indicates a design point, not a mistake.
Again, it's not about right or wrong it was about electing the knowledge of Good and evil for ourselves that set us on a path of spiritual growth. Which according to his design was purposed from the beginning. God created Spiritual infants and when we got old enough he allowed us to grow through sin.
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RE: Why would a perfect being make an imperfect world?
February 14, 2017 at 12:01 pm
(February 14, 2017 at 10:40 am)Asmodee Wrote: Oh, there are arguments against it aplenty. First, free will is a later concept, not something which actually made it into the Bible. The Bible never even hints that this is a thing. Quite the opposite, God freely tampered with free will in the Bible. When she really wanted to punish people for ding bad she "hardened Pharaoh's heart" to make sure he would do bad so she could punish all the little babies in Egypt. The God of the Bible certainly doesn't hold free will as this sacred pinnacle his followers today do.
And then there's the big argument against it. If free will is so important, why will it no longer exist when you get to Heaven? If free will is so important to God then why is the destination sans-free will? I've never heard any Christian say that they think you will have the ability to sin in Heaven. So right now free will is the most important thing ever, but in Heaven it will be utterly unimportant? How about this as an alternate explanation. Given that free will is not mentioned in the Bible at all, that God herself tampers with it as if it's meaningless and that it will no longer exist in Heaven, isn't it possible that free will is really nothing more than a convenient excuse to throw out when your brain just isn't limber enough to do the real mental gymnastics it takes to excuse the idiocy and contradictions in your beliefs? Because I'm thinking that's the answer right there.
Looks to me as if you didn't read my first post to you, if you had you would of seen that I said you only have complete free will in one area. As l've said in other threads, outside of that anything could happen. God has providence over His creation.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Why would a perfect being make an imperfect world?
February 14, 2017 at 1:00 pm
(February 14, 2017 at 11:34 am)Drich Wrote: (February 13, 2017 at 5:29 pm)Socrates Wrote: But in a perfect world would a mistake be possible? You say the world was perfect but the beings that reside in it are imperfect. Wouldn't the beings be part of the world aswell and if they are imperfect the world they reside in can't be perfect either. Why would a perfect being put imperfect beings in a perfect world, he would know full well the imperfect beings would ruin the perfect world and it all falls apart from there.
But again what makes you think any of what happened was a mistake? God placing the tree of Knowledge in the center of the garden indicates a design point, not a mistake.
Again, it's not about right or wrong it was about electing the knowledge of Good and evil for ourselves that set us on a path of spiritual growth. Which according to his design was purposed from the beginning. God created Spiritual infants and when we got old enough he allowed us to grow through sin. Idk the whole "I'm not pleased time to fuck this shit up with water lol" very subtly hints at mistake to me.
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