(February 24, 2017 at 8:27 am)Adventurer Wrote: A better question to refine with is, since god is a religiously constructed concept:

Why do religions exist?

How about that?

Money. Power. Control.

Going a bit further, does God's foreskin exist ?

(attached to God's penis, not tacked up on the wall somewhere)

Jesus was circumcised, so does he take after dad, or is he different that way ? And, if God is circumcised, did He do it, or are there angels for that ?

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: [quote='downbeatplumb' pid='1515794' dateline='1487959597']
Let me use your analogy of the flat earther back at you.

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: If you were honest you would know despite the long standing tradition of usng this argument to describe a Christian you couldn't in all fairness.

Your next sentence is the reason why:

Quote:The belief in a flat earth is a belief held by people despite there being ample evidence to discredit it.

[quote='Drich' pid='1515898' dateline='1487969614']

So let me clairify with a simple question. How can you prove something does not exist, when at best all you can demonstrate is that you are not in the presence of said object or person.

Easy.
If something is presented as evidence for something and that is shown not to be the case it is evidence against that something.

Every aspect of the "evidence" for god has been found to be wrong in fact the whole basis of its supposed existence the supernatural is as far as I can tell, not a thing

Quote:Every argument put forward for god has had to be revised in the face of evidence to the contrary, to the point that now god can only dwell in realms out side of scientific discovery

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: Not much on following simple instruction are ya? If this is the case best you stay away from IKEA.

Arguments for God are not Arguments of God. They are arguments that His instructions work. Truly what vetting process is needed other than to be face to face with God?

No they aren't they are how people delude themselves into believing absurdities.

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: I find when things are supposedly in the place you cant look their very existence becomes unlikely.

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: I find people who have claimed to look and found nothing, and refuse to do anything further have a "phone it in" experience of looking. (Meaning they have no real experience looking beyond their flat piece of earth they are standing on.

So you think we should look until we find it!

Not how this works bud.

I don't believe because its a silly idea. Its up to you to convince me otherwise.

People who go looking for spirituality will find something because they are predisposed to believe nonsense.
When I met my wife she was an evangelical Christian, but she has now dumped that for the "deeper truth" of spiritualism.

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: Given that the idea of god seems to me childishly stupid to begin with.

Lots of ideas seem stupid to me.
But god is one that belongs in the childhood of our species.
Time to move on from the oversimplified view of the universe that religions sell me thinks.

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: very top shelf of you old sport here here!
_or should I say a simple mind moves to dismiss and or trivialize what it can't easily reconcile. (so as to not appear stupid or foolish)

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: it because you have limited your think to a very small box of currently feesible possibilities. which is why I mock you as an earth is flat-er. Because you literally don't have the ablity to think outside of what you can currently vet.

Religions have had thousands of years to come up with something convincing and have failed to produce anything of substance, not one thing that I can look at and even be slightly swayed by.

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: then define 'open mind' because clearly you and I are talking about completely different things!
You have admittly mocked and openly scorned anything outside you personal world view. Like hopping to the moon. Seriously at a point between the earth and the moon given a stable platform and a suit able to sustain your months long journey along with some very good math, you could quite literally make a single hop and collide with the moon.

But tht's not what you were saying specifically right?

THAT'S MY POINT!

A closed mind only look at a problem or situation from a singular direction and is not open to anything else.

An open mind looks to establish several different angles to a given problem. You openly mocked a hop to the moon, I can show you how/where it is theoretically possible. Now putting down what you meant, can you see that your mocking is a direct result on only being able to view 'hopping to the moon' one single way? which means from your singular view point you closed off all other possibilities as being impossible, even if they were possible?

That sport is what makes you closed minded. That is why I keep calling an earth is flat-er. Because you are not willing to look beyond what you think you know.

I say I have an open mind because I am willing to admit that with compelling evidence my current opinion could be changed.
The fact that you do not have compelling evidence is not a sign of my closed mind but of your inability to prove your point.

You do know that flat earthers tend to be religious don't you?

So your attempted insult fails at every level.

(February 24, 2017 at 2:14 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: I fail to see why people worship god.

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: I worship God because I love God.

I find that sad.

Quote:If there was a god. ( I find this extremely unlikely)
Then it would just be a fact.

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: did they stop teaching English over there? do you not understand the difference between a person and thing?

Well a person or god is also a "thing" but that's beside my point.
A fact is a "thing" Henry the eighth was king of England is a fact a thing that happened.
If there was a god that did all the unlikely things that is proposed for it then that would also be a fact and a thing that happened.

Its like explaining something to a toddler

Quote:I don't get the mindset of people who need to prostrate themselves to things like that.

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: Well it's only once a year, and men's health and awareness is an important thing. You want to catch potential problem early as their will always be more options and time to deal with whatever may come

Ok so when I said Prostrate you thought I said Prostate because you are an idiot.

pros·trate  (prŏs′trāt′)
tr.v. pros·trat·ed, pros·trat·ing, pros·trates
1. To put or throw flat with the face down, as in submission or adoration: "He did not simply sit and meditate, he also knelt down, sometimes even prostrated himself" (Iris Murdoch).
2. To cause to lie flat: The wind prostrated the young trees.
3. To reduce to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome: an illness that prostrated an entire family; a nation that was prostrated by years of civil war.
adj.
1. Lying face down, as in submission or adoration.
2. Lying flat or at full length.
3. Reduced to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome.
4. Botany Growing flat along the ground.

(February 24, 2017 at 3:15 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(February 24, 2017 at 2:01 pm)Drich Wrote: . It's easy to point out someone else's 'delusion' but it tends to be more difficult to find and eliminate your own.

Who should know this better?

How does point out what I pointed out excuse you?
The mere fact I am able to identify this in other suggests I have indeed looked at myself. So then I ask you what have you done to protect yourself from your own delusion?

Quote:Don't forget laziness and the chance to look down on others.  And to get attention by claiming to be persecuted.  There are a lot more...

Again what if that man has indeed experienced God in some form or fashion?

Quote:I've been placed in the dark, and I've ASKED to be placed in the dark?!

If God says look here for me this way, and you look there your way, then by your actions are you not wanting to find nothing? Who are you to expect God to meet you on your terms?

Quote:"What if" games are for those losing the argument.

Who says the one who doesn't like thinking outside his own box? Sorry sport but personal attack straw men and red herring are those sings of intellectual forfeit.

Could you then maybe see why/how 'religion' ran away from worship of God any other way than how you described it?

No.
[/quote]

why not?

(February 25, 2017 at 8:23 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Easy.
If something is presented as evidence for something and that is shown not to be the case it is evidence against that something.

citation please.

Quote:Every aspect of the "evidence" for god has been found to be wrong in fact the whole basis of its supposed existence the supernatural is as far as I can tell, not a thing

such as? give me some examples of said evidence that has been 'found to be wrong.'

Quote:Every argument put forward for god has had to be revised in the face of evidence to the contrary, to the point that now god can only dwell in realms out side of scientific discovery

Don't tell me you are so small minded that you assume that God can only move through the supernatural?!?!? Where in the bible does it say that God is restricted to the supernatural?

If God created the Natural world would it not make sense to create it in such a way to compliment Himself/His will? In otherwords why would God create a place where he can only move supernaturally through it (against it's laws and against it's nature?") Now don't get me wrong I not saying A Creator God would not have complete power over nature. I am just pointing out the elementary foolishness it takes to reason God can only work supernaturally!

That said, why wouldn't everything God did 2000 years ago look supernatural? where as now some of those very things would look common or comical? Man has grown up a little, it does not mean God is any less God just because we can now grasp some of the things he has done and how. That was the whole point of putting the tree of knowledge in the garden.

Quote:No they aren't they are how people delude themselves into believing absurdities.

like the earth is flat.. Don't be hard on yourself.. some people are just followers, and feel comfort in believing what the crowd believes. It's a primal hold over from being decended from monkies.

Quote:So you think we should look until we find it!

What I am saying is you should simply look where God tells you to look, and you must have resolve in finding what you are looking for because it will be a difficult road if your heart is harden toward God. I found the harder the heart the further God must lead us out into the valley or into the desert, far beyond of recovering for ourselves, and well beyond anything anyone can do for you. So when you ask, you will know it could only be God who carries you back.

Quote:Not how this works bud.

Not for everyone, just my experience with the 'proud.'

Quote:I don't believe because its a silly idea. Its up to you to convince me otherwise.

Actually no. I am here to simply give accurate information and point you in the right direction if you want to make the journey, and I can even help you along the way. But if you are only convinced in going based off of what I said then you are going for the wrong reason.

You must go yourself because you want to know the truth for yourself. or you want to know God for yourself. I went to spit in God's eye, when I found Him, let's just say I knew why men fall prostrate before God.

Quote:People who go looking for spirituality will find something because they are predisposed to believe nonsense.

No they don't. Look at this website for example. Everyone on bothsides of the god argument are looking for something otherwise they would not be here. And most of you have found nothing. why because you are looking for something that does not exist the way you pictured it.

Quote:When I met my wife she was an evangelical Christian, but she has now dumped that for the "deeper truth" of spiritualism.

Quote:Lots of ideas seem stupid to me.
But god is one that belongs in the childhood of our species.
Time to move on from the oversimplified view of the universe that religions sell me thinks.

So now comes the true.. or rather now you have shed your aire of bigotry to full on elitism.

Riddle me this sport. where did the mathematical semitry come from that ties our universe together? How out of the randomness of an explosion comes galactic wide unity?

Quote:Religions have had thousands of years to come up with something convincing and have failed to produce anything of substance, not one thing that I can look at and even be slightly swayed by.

And again, what if it is not about religion? What if God does not take too kindly to religions? So then why should they be allowed to produce anything? Or can't you wrap your little shoe box around that fact? That the old Jewish model of God talking though prophets and priests are all but dead? The after Christ we become the prophets we become the priest via the Holy Spirit that has been poured out on the church.

You want proof of God it is as simple as it gets. Follow His instructions, and He will be waiting at the end of that road for you specifically with signs and wonders that will dispel any doubt you may personally have, but will mean little to anyone else. Why because it is about personal relationship with Him. Which is why "Religion" has come up with nothing.

Quote:I say I have an open mind because I am willing to admit that with compelling evidence my current opinion could be changed.

unfortunately for you the definition of an open mind or being open minded does not follow such a stringent vetting process.
To be open minded simple means to listen to or accept different ideas or opinions. You are not unless several layers of criteria are met.

The fool's folly in that is in the presumption that all new ideas will or can be vetted by the process you are willing to listen or accept a new idea.

Quote:The fact that you do not have compelling evidence is not a sign of my closed mind but of your inability to prove your point.

Again you are not listening. I can put you on a path who's path's end stands you before the Holy Spirit as per the promises made by Christ Himself.
Again what better proof of God is there than God?

Quote:You do know that flat earthers tend to be religious don't you?

It's ironic that you do not see your beliefs and how tightly you hold on to them as being 'religious.' Religion or religious activity while closly associated with God, most of the time, is not a God exclusive term. Your unfettered beliefs against God for example. beliefs that you are not willing to challenge or scrutinize, are indeed protected by you, as any deeply held faith based religious belief held by a muslim or Christian.

Quote:So your attempted insult fails at every level.

maybe for the simple person.

Quote:I find that sad.

why?

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: Well it's only once a year, and men's health and awareness is an important thing. You want to catch potential problem early as their will always be more options and time to deal with whatever may come

Ok so when I said Prostrate you thought I said Prostate because you are an idiot.

pros·trate  (prŏs′trāt′)
tr.v. pros·trat·ed, pros·trat·ing, pros·trates
1. To put or throw flat with the face down, as in submission or adoration: "He did not simply sit and meditate, he also knelt down, sometimes even prostrated himself" (Iris Murdoch).
2. To cause to lie flat: The wind prostrated the young trees.
3. To reduce to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome: an illness that prostrated an entire family; a nation that was prostrated by years of civil war.
adj.
1. Lying face down, as in submission or adoration.
2. Lying flat or at full length.
3. Reduced to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome.
4. Botany Growing flat along the ground.
[/quote]

[/quote]

[/quote]


I made a joke, and ironically if you did not have a stick up your butt you'd know that.

If God is real, the high prevalence of animism and ancestor worship wherever 'civilized religion' has not been introduced becomes very perplexing if the God in question is supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent, and desires that people believe in it. You'd think everyone would be remarking on how frequently a new tribe is discovered that turns out to worship Jesus and Yahweh if Jesus and Yahweh are real and can communicate without human agents.

(February 27, 2017 at 10:31 am)Drich Wrote:

(February 25, 2017 at 8:23 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Easy.
If something is presented as evidence for something and that is shown not to be the case it is evidence against that something.

Quote:citation please.

Quote:Every aspect of the "evidence" for god has been found to be wrong in fact the whole basis of its supposed existence the supernatural is as far as I can tell, not a thing

Quote:such as? give me some examples of said evidence that has been 'found to be wrong.'

Well more or less all of it.

But lets see evolution disproves creationism.
Geological records destroy the accounts of the flood.
No trace of the exodus has been found.
Men are not missing a rib.
etc etc etc.
And don't let forget the power of prayer was scientifically evaluated and people who knew they were being prayed for did worse than the people who didn't know.

Quote:Every argument put forward for god has had to be revised in the face of evidence to the contrary, to the point that now god can only dwell in realms out side of scientific discovery

Quote:Don't tell me you are so small minded that you assume that God can only move through the supernatural?!?!? Where in the bible does it say that God is restricted to the supernatural?

Actually I don't think god is a thing. its your delusion you tell me the details and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

Quote:If God created the Natural world would it not make sense to create it in such a way to compliment Himself/His will? In otherwords why would God create a place where he can only move supernaturally through it (against it's laws and against it's nature?") Now don't get me wrong I not saying A Creator God would not have complete power over nature. I am just pointing out the elementary foolishness it takes to reason God can only work supernaturally!

That is a big IF there my boy.

Quote:That said, why wouldn't everything God did 2000 years ago look supernatural? where as now some of those very things would look common or comical? Man has grown up a little, it does not mean God is any less God just because we can now grasp some of the things he has done and how. That was the whole point of putting the tree of knowledge in the garden.

Everything ascribed to god looks like silly stories for the gullible to me.

Quote:No they aren't they are how people delude themselves into believing absurdities.

Quote:like the earth is flat.. Don't be hard on yourself.. some people are just followers, and feel comfort in believing what the crowd believes. It's a primal hold over from being decended from monkies.

Indeed some people just stick to their stupid beliefs despite all the evidence.
I'm talking about you here.

I have always said I am willing to be swayed by sufficiently good evidence that I am not swayed is not a sign that I stick to my beliefs no matter what its a sign that you have been unconvincing.

Your entire argument is an attempt to lower my standards of evidence which shows what an incredibly weak position you are in.

Quote:So you think we should look until we find it!

Quote:What I am saying is you should simply look where God tells you to look,

God has never told me to look anywhere.

Quote: and you must have resolve in finding what you are looking for because it will be a difficult road if your heart is harden toward God. I found the harder the heart the further God must lead us out into the valley or into the desert, far beyond of recovering for ourselves, and well beyond anything anyone can do for you. So when you ask, you will know it could only be God who carries you back.

That is possibly the most stupid thing I've seen in a while and I've been watching trump speeches.
If you cant see what is wrong with what you are saying then there really is no hope for you

Quote:Not how this works bud.

Quote:Not for everyone, just my experience with the 'proud.'

So I'm proud just by being unconvinced by what you say.
I bet you tell the wife she really wants sex until she gives in, "see you did want it!"

Quote:I don't believe because its a silly idea. Its up to you to convince me otherwise.

Quote:Actually no. I am here to simply give accurate information and point you in the right direction if you want to make the journey, and I can even help you along the way. But if you are only convinced in going based off of what I said then you are going for the wrong reason.

You have provided no information of any value. None, zip zero.

Quote:You must go yourself because you want to know the truth for yourself. or you want to know God for yourself. I went to spit in God's eye, when I found Him, let's just say I knew why men fall prostrate before God.

I DO NOT BELEIVE IN GOD.

Is that clear enough for you. I don't want to spit in its eye. is it supposed to have eyes?

Quote:People who go looking for spirituality will find something because they are predisposed to believe nonsense.

Quote:No they don't. Look at this website for example. Everyone on bothsides of the god argument are looking for something otherwise they would not be here. And most of you have found nothing. why because you are looking for something that does not exist the way you pictured it.

I'm just here for the yucks I am not seeking anything

Quote:When I met my wife she was an evangelical Christian, but she has now dumped that for the "deeper truth" of spiritualism.

Quote:Lots of ideas seem stupid to me.
But god is one that belongs in the childhood of our species.
Time to move on from the oversimplified view of the universe that religions sell me thinks.

Quote:So now comes the true.. or rather now you have shed your aire of bigotry to full on elitism.

Riddle me this sport. where did the mathematical semitry come from that ties our universe together? How out of the randomness of an explosion comes galactic wide unity?

Quantum.

Or I don't know.

One thing I can definitely 100% rule out though is the Abrahamic god.

Quote:Religions have had thousands of years to come up with something convincing and have failed to produce anything of substance, not one thing that I can look at and even be slightly swayed by.

Quote:And again, what if it is not about religion? What if God does not take too kindly to religions? So then why should they be allowed to produce anything? Or can't you wrap your little shoe box around that fact? That the old Jewish model of God talking though prophets and priests are all but dead? The after Christ we become the prophets we become the priest via the Holy Spirit that has been poured out on the church.

That sounds like utter bollocks.

Quote:You want proof of God it is as simple as it gets. Follow His instructions, and He will be waiting at the end of that road for you specifically with signs and wonders that will dispel any doubt you may personally have, but will mean little to anyone else. Why because it is about personal relationship with Him. Which is why "Religion" has come up with nothing.

I strongly doubt it.

Quote:I say I have an open mind because I am willing to admit that with compelling evidence my current opinion could be changed.

Quote:unfortunately for you the definition of an open mind or being open minded does not follow such a stringent vetting process.
To be open minded simple means to listen to or accept different ideas or opinions. You are not unless several layers of criteria are met.

Being willing to be persuaded by compelling evidence is the epitome of an open mind. what you are after is gullibility which is something different.

Quote:The fool's folly in that is in the presumption that all new ideas will or can be vetted by the process you are willing to listen or accept a new idea.

If they don't meet my level of proof then I reject them this is not being closed minded this is being sensible.

Quote:The fact that you do not have compelling evidence is not a sign of my closed mind but of your inability to prove your point.

Quote:Again you are not listening. I can put you on a path who's path's end stands you before the Holy Spirit as per the promises made by Christ Himself.
Again what better proof of God is there than God?

What is this god thing you keep brining up.
I want a n explanation of how it came to be.
What its made out of.
where it is.
How does it communicate and I want this verified with scientifically peer reviewed papers.

Quote:You do know that flat earthers tend to be religious don't you?

Quote:It's ironic that you do not see your beliefs and how tightly you hold on to them as being 'religious.' Religion or religious activity while closly associated with God, most of the time, is not a God exclusive term. Your unfettered beliefs against God for example. beliefs that you are not willing to challenge or scrutinize, are indeed protected by you, as any deeply held faith based religious belief held by a muslim or Christian.

My beliefs come down to not being convinced by Christianity.
I am not wedded to the idea of atheism. But I cant help being an atheist because I find god a very very silly idea.

Quote:So your attempted insult fails at every level.

Quote:maybe for the simple person.

Really!

Quote:I find that sad.

Quote:why?

You seem like you might be nice but your are deluding yourself at a fundamental level.

(February 24, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Drich Wrote: Well it's only once a year, and men's health and awareness is an important thing. You want to catch potential problem early as their will always be more options and time to deal with whatever may come

Ok so when I said Prostrate you thought I said Prostate because you are an idiot.

pros·trate  (prŏs′trāt′)
tr.v. pros·trat·ed, pros·trat·ing, pros·trates
1. To put or throw flat with the face down, as in submission or adoration: "He did not simply sit and meditate, he also knelt down, sometimes even prostrated himself" (Iris Murdoch).
2. To cause to lie flat: The wind prostrated the young trees.
3. To reduce to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome: an illness that prostrated an entire family; a nation that was prostrated by years of civil war.
adj.
1. Lying face down, as in submission or adoration.
2. Lying flat or at full length.
3. Reduced to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome.
4. Botany Growing flat along the ground.

[/quote]

[/quote]

Quote:

I made a joke, and ironically if you did not have a stick up your butt you'd know that.

That I didn't recognise it as a joke indicates the level of humour it displayed.

I myself am a very funny person.

No one likes a laugh more than I do.
Except my wife.......and some of her friends...thinking about most people like a laugh more than I do....



Not really I'm a scream.

(February 27, 2017 at 11:06 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: If God is real, the high prevalence of animism and ancestor worship wherever 'civilized religion' has not been introduced becomes very perplexing if the God in question is supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent, and desires that people believe in it. You'd think everyone would be remarking on how frequently a new tribe is discovered that turns out to worship Jesus and Yahweh if Jesus and Yahweh are real and can communicate without human agents.

To some degree you are right. At the same time even the oldest known aboriginal traditions include some kind of 'Great Spirit' albeit a generally distant and indifferent being. Personally, I ascribe to the notion of progressive revelation so the idea that prehistoric and early pagan religion only partially reflect the fullness of the divine doesn't bother me all that much. That pattern is part of the growth of Christianity out of the prior Abrahamic, Mosaic, Prophetic and Intertestimonial periods, in that order. (As for Muslims, they are being deceived by a demonic "Angel of Light" as predicted by Paul)

(February 23, 2017 at 6:45 am)Adventurer Wrote: Dear all,

I would like to run a debate titled God Exists. I would like two teams to be involved. One team is affirmative that argues for God; the other team argues against God. It is not a requirement to be a theist or atheist for either team. You may want to treat this debate as a hypothesis and an opportunity to cultivate your own critical thinking and argumentative skills.

Each team may comprise of more than one member but both teams must have equal numbers of members.

Would anyone be interested to get started?

Define what a god is.

(February 27, 2017 at 4:14 pm)Mathilda Wrote:

(February 23, 2017 at 6:45 am)Adventurer Wrote: Dear all,

I would like to run a debate titled God Exists. I would like two teams to be involved. One team is affirmative that argues for God; the other team argues against God. It is not a requirement to be a theist or atheist for either team. You may want to treat this debate as a hypothesis and an opportunity to cultivate your own critical thinking and argumentative skills.

Each team may comprise of more than one member but both teams must have equal numbers of members.

Would anyone be interested to get started?

Define what a god is.

The Necessary Being. That than which nothing greater can be conceived. He whose existence is identical to His essence. The Ground of Being. Etc., etc... God has been pretty well defined across multiple religious traditions so it's a bit dodgy to say you don't know what god is being discussed.