(March 22, 2017 at 10:10 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Little Rik, God has blessed you with reasoning and much knowledge.

You and I should have a discussion about God and the path he has established for us and wants us to follow!

True, if you define "reason" and "knowledge" as totally unrecognizable things.

Either MK just delivered the most beautiful ironic gutpunch in history, or he's found a brand new nadir beneath his barrel. Now I'm going to get a headache working out which.

(March 22, 2017 at 6:36 am)Little Rik Wrote: NDEs experience are the evidence.

Actually, they are evidence of altered biological functions of the brain.
Here is an article worth reading: https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...ear-death/
Here is a study: http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sci...all%3Dtrue
And here is an interesting study that concludes out of the body experiences can be triggered artificially by stimulating the right temporoparietal junction: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1...8404270885
What scientific evidence tells us here is that NDEs are biological phenomena, not the immaterial breath of God.

Quote:Facts are facts.

I agree.

Quote:If instead you guys keep on believing that the consciousness is a product of the brain and with the physical death is all over then you will never be able to sort out how the whole system works

Uh, yes we will, just like we explain all biological systems we study, the brain and consciousness is no different. 

Quote:Well, well Atheo.
Suppose that science discover that.
After sometime the science discover that what was discovered in the past was not true and then again and again the latest science discover something else.
Shell I follow the latest discovering all the time?

You should conform your beliefs to the evidence concluded from scientific studies. Science depends on confirming knowledge and discovery.

Quote:Magic.

Like pulling rabbits out the magician hat?

Any event or phenomena not corresponding to the laws of physics.

Quote:No Atheo.
It took millions of years to build up the consciousness that we got.
That is not magic.
That is very hard work.
Life teach us that it is through hard work that we achieve something and this is not magic.
Are rather atheists that believe in magic by thinking that the consciousness is a product of the brain not me.  

Consciousness being the product of the brain would mean it is explainable by biological phenomena and the laws of physics, not anything near magic.

(March 23, 2017 at 2:15 am)TheAtheologian Wrote:

(March 22, 2017 at 6:36 am)Little Rik Wrote: NDEs experience are the evidence.

Actually, they are evidence of altered biological functions of the brain.
Here is an article worth reading: https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...ear-death/
Here is a study: http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sci...all%3Dtrue
And here is an interesting study that concludes out of the body experiences can be triggered artificially by stimulating the right temporoparietal junction: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1...8404270885
What scientific evidence tells us here is that NDEs are biological phenomena, not the immaterial breath of God.

We already went through all this Atheo and guess what?
It is all about guessing.
Guessing, guessing and more guessing nothing that produce real evidence.
Obviously the physical science has no way to understand what is not physical such as the abstract consciousness.
Did anybody ever explain to you what is the difference between something physical and something abstract?
Well if not now is the time for you to find out.  

Quote:Facts are facts.

Quote:I agree.

If you agree then why you bring those links that only talk about guessing and not facts?  

Quote:If instead you guys keep on believing that the consciousness is a product of the brain and with the physical death is all over then you will never be able to sort out how the whole system works

Quote:Uh, yes we will, just like we explain all biological systems we study, the brain and consciousness is no different. 

Wrong once again Atheo.
The consciousness is not something that the physical science is able to understand.
It has nothing to do with biology.

I guess you never thought about that Atheo, did you?  

Quote:Well, well Atheo.
Suppose that science discover that.
After sometime the science discover that what was discovered in the past was not true and then again and again the latest science discover something else.
Shell I follow the latest discovering all the time?

Quote:You should conform your beliefs to the evidence concluded from scientific studies. Science depends on confirming knowledge and discovery.

The old saying...........Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's........

Get it Atheo?
I certainly follow what physical science bring as evidence but consciousness is not in the field of physical science that is why it can not understand what is outside her limitations.  

Quote:Magic.
Like pulling rabbits out the magician hat?

Quote:Any event or phenomena not corresponding to the laws of physics.

That is interesting Atheo.
Consciousness is 100% outside the law of physic yet is something real.
Try not to use your consciousness now that you read or write something and see if you can understand anything that is why I just said what Jesus said 2000 years ago...........Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's......

It seems that the time goes by but some people never wake up to the reality.  

Quote:No Atheo.
It took millions of years to build up the consciousness that we got.
That is not magic.
That is very hard work.
Life teach us that it is through hard work that we achieve something and this is not magic.
Are rather atheists that believe in magic by thinking that the consciousness is a product of the brain not me.  

Quote:Consciousness being the product of the brain would mean it is explainable by biological phenomena and the laws of physics, not anything near magic.

The thing Atheo is that the consciousness IS NOT a product of the brain that is why biology is unable to explain it.  

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(March 22, 2017 at 11:13 am)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(March 22, 2017 at 10:10 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Little Rik, God has blessed you with reasoning and much knowledge.

You and I should have a discussion about God and the path he has established for us and wants us to follow!

True, if you define "reason" and "knowledge" as totally unrecognizable things.

Gee, how lucky I am to find an expert in reason and knowledge.  

Please Harry help LR to understand.  

If the brain can create the consciousness according to atheism also a vehicle can create a driver.
Is that true?  

Please Harry don't let LR in the lurch.  

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(March 22, 2017 at 8:02 am)Harry Nevis Wrote: What evidence is there to support what they experience as bliss is permanent?

What about changing people lives.
What about turning a tough atheists into a strong believer.

I guess you never thought about that Harry, did you?  

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(March 22, 2017 at 10:05 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(March 22, 2017 at 5:41 am)Little Rik Wrote: Fail again Yog.




Thousand of NDEs experiencers clearly witness this state of permanent bliss among all those who
were already there (in heaven so to speak) and of course they experience themselves this state until they were brought back into their bodies.
That is the very reason why these people who experience that state of bliss were brought back into their bodies against their wishes.
Why would you live into a body with all the many troubles that concern when you can live free from your body into a permanent state of bliss?

Typical little rik.  All sorts of guessing and no facts in evidence.  This is all just baseless speculation.

Facts yog not speculations.
It is a fact that a dead brain is unable to come up with anything at all especially an experience that is clear, sharp and vivid therefore only a consciousness that separate from a dead body-brain can do this.

Why you enjoy bang your head on the wall again and again?
Masochism is bad for you yog.
Think about it girl.

What Rik here doesn't seem to understand, is that everything we can observe and make sense of is physical. Consciousness can be demonstrated to fully arise from neurological processes. Take split-brain patients for example, who appear normal but, upon closer examination, are each actually two people (two conscious beings) who appear as one person.

Dualism is simply unsubstantiated nonsense. It provides for interesting discussions, but nothing beyond that.

(March 22, 2017 at 10:10 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Little Rik, God has blessed you with reasoning and much knowledge.

You and I should have a discussion about God and the path he has established for us and wants us to follow!

Anytime MK.
Open a thread and I will follow.
Remember however that I do not follow religions.  

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(March 23, 2017 at 9:11 am)ma5t3r0fpupp3t5 Wrote: What Rik here doesn't seem to understand, is that everything we can observe and make sense of is physical. Consciousness can be demonstrated to fully arise from neurological processes. Take split-brain patients for example, who appear normal but, upon closer examination, are each actually two people (two conscious beings) who appear as one person.

Dualism is simply unsubstantiated nonsense. It provides for interesting discussions, but nothing beyond that.

Wrong again Ma.

Can you observe something abstract?
Did anybody tell you that the consciousness is not physical in nature therefore it CAN NOT be observed physically speaking?


I guess you never thought about that Ma, did you?  

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(March 22, 2017 at 10:21 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(March 22, 2017 at 10:05 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Typical little rik.  All sorts of guessing and no facts in evidence.  This is all just baseless speculation.

His brand of logic is, as Alex points out, much too difficult for most of us to grasp.  I for example cannot get my head around how these literally millions of NDE'ers experience permanent bliss themselves UNTIL they are forced to go on living in their bodies.  Permanence comes with an expiration date apparently.  It does make you wonder why these billions of NDE'ers don't immediately kill themselves to get back to that permanent state that looked so good to them during their transient experience of blissful permanence.

If you would have read the NDEs experiences (who said millions of them?) then you would have noticed that in most cases God said to them........is not your time ......you still have to do some more work.....
that is why they were put back inside their bodies against their will.
That doesn't means that they did not experience a tremendous state of bliss that make them refuse to go back into their bodies.

Time is an universal factor which does not exist in God reality and so is the feeling of permanent.
We judge from what we can feel in this limited universe where nothing is permanent so we come to the conclusion that everything is not permanent.
Unfortunately mate you forget that outside this universe the time factor is nil therefore everything is permanent.

Last point.
Why don't these people kill themselves to then experience the permanent bliss?
Stupid question Whatever.
We are not We.
We according to yoga are within and inside God mind so we are not in the business to dictate what we deserve.
Even if we kill ourselves we still wouldn't be able to get what we would like.
It would be even worse because we try to force our way inside and that is not acceptable.

Would you welcome someone who force his-her way inside your house?

You never thought about that Whatever, did you?  

(March 23, 2017 at 8:25 am)Little Rik Wrote: It is all about guessing.
Guessing, guessing and more guessing nothing that produce real evidence.
Obviously the physical science has no way to understand what is not physical such as the abstract consciousness.
Did anybody ever explain to you what is the difference between something physical and something abstract?
Well if not now is the time for you to find out.  

Nope, it is about hypothesis, testing, and conclusion to accurately come up with facts and theories. Science has proven itself again and again with its working technology, modern medicine that increases life expectancy, and wonderful discoveries. Your conception of science is flawed and I thought you provided NDEs as scientific evidence, but I guess not since every other conclusion besides your wishful thinking is considered "just guessing". 

Quote:If you agree then why you bring those links that only talk about guessing and not facts?   

Because they are evidence, not unsupported religious beliefs. I have yet to here any evidence from you that a soul exists, just NDEs and you dismissed the supported conclusions as just guesses. I agree facts are facts, and the facts are likely that consciousness is not separate from the brain.

Quote:The old saying...........Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's........

Get it Atheo?
I certainly follow what physical science bring as evidence but consciousness is not in the field of physical science that is why it can not understand what is outside her limitations.   

You refuse to accept the neuroscience behind consciousness  and just assume that it is the immaterial breath of God.

Quote:That is interesting Atheo.

Consciousness is 100% outside the law of physic yet is something real.

Which means you believe that supernatural religious explanations apply to consciousness just like the ancients thought about volcanoes, wind, and other natural phenomena. Its hardly any different here.

Quote:It seems that the time goes by but some people never wake up to the reality.   

You are the one claiming to use "logic" here, but I don't see you applying it. Rather, you are demonstrating religious dogma. 

Quote:The thing Atheo is that the consciousness IS NOT a product of the brain that is why biology is unable to explain it.  

Again, how do you know? 
There are explanations, but not a scientifically conclusive agreed upon mechanism of consciousness as of now. However, not conclusively knowing doesn't give a warranted supernatural of the gaps.

(March 23, 2017 at 3:49 pm)TheAtheologian Wrote:

(March 23, 2017 at 8:25 am)Little Rik Wrote: It is all about guessing.
Guessing, guessing and more guessing nothing that produce real evidence.
Obviously the physical science has no way to understand what is not physical such as the abstract consciousness.
Did anybody ever explain to you what is the difference between something physical and something abstract?
Well if not now is the time for you to find out.  

Nope, it is about hypothesis, testing, and conclusion to accurately come up with facts and theories. Science has proven itself again and again with its working technology, modern medicine that increases life expectancy, and wonderful discoveries. Your conception of science is flawed and I thought you provided NDEs as scientific evidence, but I guess not since every other conclusion besides your wishful thinking is considered "just guessing". 

Quote:If you agree then why you bring those links that only talk about guessing and not facts?   

Because they are evidence, not unsupported religious beliefs. I have yet to here any evidence from you that a soul exists, just NDEs and you dismissed the supported conclusions as just guesses. I agree facts are facts, and the facts are likely that consciousness is not separate from the brain.

Quote:The old saying...........Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's........

Get it Atheo?
I certainly follow what physical science bring as evidence but consciousness is not in the field of physical science that is why it can not understand what is outside her limitations.   

You refuse to accept the neuroscience behind consciousness  and just assume that it is the immaterial breath of God.

Quote:That is interesting Atheo.

Consciousness is 100% outside the law of physic yet is something real.

Which means you believe that supernatural religious explanations apply to consciousness just like the ancients thought about volcanoes, wind, and other natural phenomena. Its hardly any different here.

Quote:It seems that the time goes by but some people never wake up to the reality.   

You are the one claiming to use "logic" here, but I don't see you applying it. Rather, you are demonstrating religious dogma. 

Quote:The thing Atheo is that the consciousness IS NOT a product of the brain that is why biology is unable to explain it.  

Again, how do you know? 
There are explanations, but not a scientifically conclusive agreed upon mechanism of consciousness as of now. However, not conclusively knowing doesn't give a warranted supernatural of the gaps.

Look Atheo the time that all will become 100% clear is not very far now.

It all work like an avalanche.
It tool a million of years for yesterday human to become today humans so to speak.
Almost nothing was done until 15.000 years ago so the avalanche was hardly moving.
Slowly slowly humans started to use more and more consciousness and today the avalanche of progress is moving very fast.
Religious, political, economics and atheists dogmas are getting out the way very very fast.  
The communism has collapsed.
Capitalism is on the way to total collapse.
Religions can hardly find any new blood.
Very soon also atheism will be a laughing stock.
Humanity can not wait any longer for freedom from dogmas.
But don't you worry Atheo.
LR will be there the day that will be clear to everybody that God is a reality and LR will pat on your back
as a sign of support.  
After all you are not a bad guy.  

Oh by the way considering that you just mention neuroscience did you know that a neurosurgeon by the name of Eben Alexander did have an NDE and now cast apart all his previous non beliefs in God

One last thing Atheo.
Every time you guys mention that consciousness can be understood by science you remind me when I try to hold a eel in my hands.
It was so slimy and slippery that I could not hold it.
Well the story about science and consciousness is very similar.
Science can not understand consciousness.
Consciousness can not be seen nor touch nor smell yet some fool folks think that it can be understood by science.
Crazy, absolutely crazy.  

(March 22, 2017 at 11:39 am)Stimbo Wrote: Either MK just delivered the most beautiful ironic gutpunch in history, or he's found a brand new nadir beneath his barrel. Now I'm going to get a headache working out which.

Take two Anselms and call me in the morning.

Boru

(March 24, 2017 at 5:32 am)Little Rik Wrote: Very soon also atheism will be a laughing stock.

Atheism is simply the absence of a belief in any deity, so saying it will be a laughing stock is far fetched. Science has progressed farther and farther away from religion, as God's existence cannot be demonstrated and the theist model is contradicted by science.

Quote:Oh by the way considering that you just mention neuroscience did you know that a neurosurgeon by the name of Eben Alexander did have an NDE and now cast apart all his previous non beliefs in God  

His thesis was that his consciousness left the body, but the likely possibility that the NDE occurred as he was surfacing from the coma and a cortex becoming functional again is denied by him, which is actually more likely, as was explained by Oliver Sacks.
Scientific studies have demonstrated that by stimulating certain areas of the brain, relatable hallucinations can result.

Quote:Science can not understand consciousness.
Consciousness can not be seen nor touch nor smell yet some fool folks think that it can be understood by science.
Crazy, absolutely crazy.  

And when science one day finds a universal explanation, then what? You would have to revise your views or you would just dogmatically dismiss it. I hope you will choose whats right.