(March 30, 2017 at 11:58 am)wallym Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 11:02 am)Jesster Wrote: Sure. I just don't see where the "male" advantage is.

Shaquille O'neal was 7'1" 300 pounds, and athletic.  The tallest wnba player (from 2012) was 6'8" 207.

Unless the sex change makes his skeleton shrink, there will be a decided advantage.

Holy fuck, people love throwing arguments at me when I'm exhausted. Fine.

Shaquille O'neal isn't trans.

If we're going by size and skeletal build, should we toss out cisgender women who have this same advantage over other women?

(also, the tallest WNBA player, Malgorzata Dydek, was 7'2")

(March 30, 2017 at 12:12 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 11:58 am)wallym Wrote: Shaquille O'neal was 7'1" 300 pounds, and athletic.  The tallest wnba player (from 2012) was 6'8" 207.

Unless the sex change makes his skeleton shrink, there will be a decided advantage.

Holy fuck, people love throwing arguments at me when I'm exhausted. Fine.

Shaquille O'neal isn't trans.

If we're going by size and skeletal build, should we toss out cisgender women who have this same advantage over other women?

That's the point.  There are no cisgender women who have this same advantage.  Any NBA Center who went through the sex change process would immediately be by far the best player in WNBA history.  Most center's in the wnba are 6'5.  There are 100's, probably 1000's of men, who if they transitioned would be the greatest female basketball player of all time.

If there are no physical advantages, then an average NBA center who transitions should be an average wnba center.

(margo dydek was 7'2 220, and could barely move. Maybe that's what'd happen if nba players transistioned? They'd lose all their athleticism, and plod around like a wounded giraffe. That might be true, but doesn't seem right.)

(March 30, 2017 at 12:37 pm)wallym Wrote: That's the point.  There are no cisgender women who have this same advantage.

Except you're just wrong here. Malgorzata Dydek.

Here's more to consider. The average WNBA player height is 6 feet tall. I am smaller than that average. Do I have more right to be there than the women who are above that average height?

(March 30, 2017 at 12:37 pm)wallym Wrote: margo dydek was 7'2 220, and could barely move

Her records on the basketball court say otherwise.

(March 30, 2017 at 12:39 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 12:37 pm)wallym Wrote: That's the point.  There are no cisgender women who have this same advantage.

Except you're just wrong here. Malgorzata Dydek.

Here's more to consider. The average WNBA player height is 6 feet tall. I am smaller than that average. Do I have more right to be there than the women who are above that average height?

The point of the WNBA is that there are probably 10,000?  50,000?  More?  Men who are better than the best female basketball player.  So if we didn't split them up by gender, there would be no way for women to compete.   

Just like in your local rec leagues, you might find an under 6 foot league.  Or an over 40 league.   While somewhat arbitrary, the point of creating these demographics, is the best of those in that demographic can compete with their peers from that demographic.

I think transwomen competing in the WNBA is the physical equivalent of letting people 6'1 or 36 in the under 6 foot league, or over 40 league. 

And I mentioned in the previous post, Dydek was practically immobile.  Again, maybe that's what an NBA player would turn into.  Or maybe worse with a transition.  But it seems unlikely.  She looked like she had some gland issues.

So you're unwilling to look at the actual results I'm presenting and you'd prefer to hang onto your own biased arguments instead. Cool. I didn't want to have a conversation with you anyway. Like I said, I'm exhausted.

(March 30, 2017 at 1:03 pm)Jesster Wrote: So you're unwilling to look at the actual results I'm presenting and you'd prefer to hang onto your own biased arguments instead. Cool. I didn't want to have a conversation with you anyway. Like I said, I'm exhausted.

Is your results, that a young 7'1" 300lb crazy strong/fast/athletic shaq, if he had a sex change operation, would turn into Dydek? Doesn't really matter. Go to bed, already!

(March 30, 2017 at 1:09 pm)wallym Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 1:03 pm)Jesster Wrote: So you're unwilling to look at the actual results I'm presenting and you'd prefer to hang onto your own biased arguments instead. Cool. I didn't want to have a conversation with you anyway. Like I said, I'm exhausted.

Is your results, that a young 7'1" 300lb crazy strong/fast/athletic shaq, if he had a sex change operation, would turn into Dydek?

I don't know. Shaq isn't trans. Shaq also isn't the average person. I do know from personal experience that hormones would have a dramatic effect on that muscle mass and weight, though, so I don't know why you are quoting that so heavily. You really should use an actual transgender woman as an example instead of a man. You're making it seem like you don't know the first thing about transitioning, but not too many people do.

(March 29, 2017 at 6:12 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(March 29, 2017 at 5:57 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: You choose to have surgery and choose to take pills to wipe out testosterone and choose to participate in sports.  So you might not choose to want to live as a woman, but everything else is choice especially if you are participating in a combat sport. If you are trans, I'd imagine the smallest sarcrifice you'd have to make is not participating in a sport where you can kick the crap out of people with a huge disadvantage.

Here was my choice: transition or suicide.

---

(March 29, 2017 at 6:02 pm)Shell B Wrote: Yeah, a lot of people seem to think it's a topic we shouldn't talk about because there are other topics, but there are like 8 gazillion threads in this forum for discussing music, people's feelings, what they're eating, their favorite TV shows, why they're rage quitting, etc. For some reason, not every thread is dedicated to some tragedy flavor of the week. That could be because people are not obligated to only discuss the big issues. I'm actually a little surprised that there is this much "there's starving children in Africa" going on in this thread.

From the perspective of a transgender person, it gets awfully tiresome hearing people argue all the time about whether you should have certain rights or not. I still understand how it may look to you since you don't feel the same pressure. Feel free to discuss, but don't expect many transgender people to feel too overjoyed about it.

This and this.

You've swung way too far to the left if you can't even bear the idea of people discussing natural inequalities between genders, races, etc. The second the goal is to stymie discussion, you're veering toward authoritarianism. Again, if the conversation bothers anyone to the point where they can't even bear that it is exist, go talk about something else. There is nothing at all wrong with entertaining an idea enough to debate about it.

(March 30, 2017 at 6:05 pm)Shell B Wrote: You've swung way too far to the left if you can't even bear the idea of people discussing natural inequalities between genders, races, etc. The second the goal is to stymie discussion, you're veering toward authoritarianism. Again, if the conversation bothers anyone to the point where they can't even bear that it is exist, go talk about something else. There is nothing at all wrong with entertaining an idea enough to debate about it.

What about the same subject repeatedly brought up again and again. This isn't exactly a new topic. It's the same bullshit each time. No one ever mentions transmen on testosterone having to fight against
Cisgendered women for example. Or androgen insensitivity or intersex people, it's slways male to female transgendered. There is clearly some other motive for these threads.