Trans people & sports

[Shell B]

I do remember saying it. You responded to my latest post, not that post. We were talking about whether ftm trans have broken records. You want to just assume that they have. I say there aren't any records of it that I know of. You say they aren't the new kids on the block and that they have been doing this since at least the 50s, which has fuck all to do with whether they've set any records, and does make them the new kids on the block. The Olympics have been around for thousands of years.

Again, you're just arguing with yourself. You don't have any sources where a ftm has set or broken a record, then piss off. Conjecture from you is worth about as much as dried up dog shit to me.

Try reading my posts properly for once. I have only ever said that we do not know whether transsexuals have been competing and breaking records.You are both simultaneously straw-manning me and adopting my position once called out on your assumptions. I only said that transsexuals have been transitioning since the 50's. After all, for all we know MTFs might have been competing since the 50's and not doing very well. After all, I did say

My point is that it is not always obvious who is transsexual. The whole point of transitioning is to blend in as the gender that matches your gender identity.

Whereas you're saying that  FTMs are definitely not setting records.

So, your position is that it's just a coincidence that ftm trans aren't setting the same kind of records?

Fuck's sake, Mathilda, I wouldn't adopt your position for the world. You took a hard left at hard left and half your posts are militant as fuck.

You haven't "called me out" on any assumptions.

Context is everything. I initially said, to someone else, that it doesn't appear that ftm are setting records. His response led to the comment you quotemined above. Given that his response didn't suggest they were setting records, I posited his position in that way.

I've stated time and again that I find your attributions of malice, militant leftism and superiority complex insufferable. Stop quotemining conversations I'm having with reasonable people to go on your unreasonable tirades. I'm not interested in discussing anything with you. You're not even having discussions. You're just spewing your beliefs and talking down to anyone who doesn't agree. Go throw your period blood at a Republican or whatever it is you nutjobs do with your spare time.

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Maybe we should just close this thread up.
We don't seem to be getting anywhere and personally, I like everyone involved (and totally respect their intelligence) and I'd hate to see it descend any further. :-)

That's a sweet sentiment, but people don't have to like each other.

I'll probably start a new thread at some point that posits a more specific question, so it can, hopefully, lead to more specific debate on the topic. I could even start a "formal" debate in the debate area, so the funny farms on both sides of the coin can't chime in.

[The Grand Nudger]

What you said is that she and Hubbard won something in a big way every now and again.

She's won mma fights, that's the thing she's won. And in a fairly big way, a lot of her wins were knock outs or TKO.

The disagreement I have is with the last part. Every now and again. Winning 8 fights and losing one can't reasonably be called winning every now and again.

Maybe the fourth times the charm?  It can be reasonably called..and I have called it, winning something in a big way every now and again.  Like Fox did..at her career highpoint thusfar, beasting a subpar fighter..or Hubbard did, at her career highpoint thusfar, crushing a NZ weighlifting competition while being nearly 100k under the world record for a cis female.  

The long lists of trans not winning something, unconsidered.  Trans second places, third places, also rans...we never notice these.  We didn't notice fox and Hubbard until they, frankly, did good in the "also ran" divisions.  

The one thing I have interjected is similar to what you said in the sense that I don't think an advantage necessarily makes a fight unfair anyway. I'd leave that for other people to argue over what constitutes fair markers to put in place divisions in fighting leagues and so on.

I don't think that there -is- a trans advantage.  I do think, for example, in the case of Fox and Hubbard, there are individual advantages.  I just have no idea why we think that they are or may be trans advantages.

[paulpablo]

I don't want to get bogged down too much like I always seem to in an argument of semantics.

Fox hasn't won every now and then.
She's won the majority of times.
Male to female trans people in generalI have no clue about in terms of statistics.

Where I think there is an advantage is an advantage within that individuals own capabilities.

I think if an individual has been born a natural female they'll have less capability in certain areas of certain sports in terms of hand size and height in relation to a transsexual who has spent most of their life as a man.

That doesn't mean they'll have a definite advantage vs all natural born women, even if there is an advantage it doesn't mean they'll win everything.

All it means is that if they were born a women they'd likely be shorter with smaller hands and that could be an advantage in some sports.

Yes I do acknowledge that women are sometimes taller than men and have bigger hands and there are just some women that have more testosterone than other women, but that's something I've already discussed.

Also I'm not saying I definitely know these advantages I mentioned are all the advantages there are, I still wouldn't tell the female fighters who fought fox who said she had extra strength or an advantage that they're definitely wrong