(April 3, 2017 at 12:24 pm)wallym Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 12:12 pm)alpha male Wrote: They can stop if they want. Depends what's more important to them.

Medications that give an advantage are already regulated.

Making transgender people choose between sports and transitioning is not an ideal solution, socially speaking.  

But I think in the end, there just might not be a good solution that addresses both social and competitive aspects of sports.

That's been my point all along. *If* there is a demonstrable advantage, we (the general we), as adults, can come up with a solution that is both sensitive to the shit deal trans individuals got in the self-identity department and is sensitive to the needs of "cis" people.

(April 3, 2017 at 10:12 am)Shell B Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 4:41 am)surreptitious57 Wrote: If male to female trans retain higher than average levels of testosterone
which gives them an advantage [ although not an unfair one ] over cis females so be it. It should actually provide cis females with inspiration to train and compete even harder

That doesn't make any sense. If they retain higher levels of testosterone and have an advantage, there is no way bio females can just "try harder."

Quote:There is no point in transgenders actually undergoing transition if society is going to treat them according to their gender of birth.

Well, I disagree. I think they should transition to make themselves feel more themselves. It helps them on a personal level. I'm not necessarily talking about treating them differently. I'm talking about whether it's hurting biological women in sports. If it is, we need to think of a solution that is fair to everyone. I might feel like a kid inside, but it's not cool for me to go kick some ass at a Little League game.

Quote:Cis people are routinely treated according to their gender of choice

Oh, come on. Choice? Now we're acting as if people have a choice as to the gender they're born with. We've just come right around from "it's not a choice" to "it's not a choice, unless you're a straight person who is comfortable with their biological gender."

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(April 3, 2017 at 9:36 am)wallym Wrote: Why do you have to wait until they transitioned?  Are you saying a transgender woman who hasn't gone through the operations is not really a woman?

Well, I know I am. She's not physically a woman yet. She has the build and hormones of a man. Basically, fuck cis women, huh? Let them get their faces beat in by trans folk who are physically men in the ring for the cause of equality! Yeah. You (general you) keep talking about trans rights, but don't seem to give a shit about cis women. Noice.

Stop being histrionic Shell. How many sports involve beating in faces? You are also wrong in that women can't fight as well as men, just differently according to body type. Ciswoman vs ciswoman in combat will still get equally damaged. Suggesting that women can't punch or kick properly is wrong and insulting to all women trained in combat sports / arts. I have personally trained women in thai boxing.

You have also deliberately ignored the fact that post-op on hormones transwomen will lose any physical advantage of having had a male body both in muscle mass and yes also bone structure if given enough time. A year is not enough. Your deliberately selective and emotive examples suggest an alternative agenda.

(April 3, 2017 at 1:50 pm)Mathilda Wrote: You have also deliberately ignored the fact that post-op on hormones transwomen will lose any physical advantage of having had a  male body  both in muscle mass and yes also bone structure if given enough time. A year is not enough. Your deliberately selective and emotive examples suggest an alternative agenda.

I asked this earlier. Hypothetically,  If you take an average NBA Center, how long would it take for the 7'0 player to turn into an average WNBA Center?  (who are typically 6'6 or so)?

Sport is just a form of entertainment for the masses and is also extremely selective. You can't play professional basketball if you are not tall enough no matter how good you are. And not all sports have a physical advantage for men. So I am personally fine with banning trans people at professional levels if other unfair physical advantages were banned as well, for example people born with excess hemoglobin in the blood, intersex people etc. But then you'd just end up with mediocre athletes, because the best athletes are all basically exceptional in some regard. When you devote a lifetime to shaving off a fraction of a second and have a team versed in sport science then it's not all down to talent.

So you need to ask yourself which freaks you want to see performing for your entertainment.

(April 3, 2017 at 2:07 pm)Mathilda Wrote: Sport is just a form of entertainment for the masses and is  also extremely selective. You can't play professional basketball if you are not tall enough no matter how good you are. And not all sports have a  physical advantage for men. So I am personally fine with banning trans people at professional levels if other unfair physical advantages were banned as well, for example people born with excess hemoglobin in the blood, intersex people etc. But then you'd just end up with mediocre athletes, because the best athletes are all basically exceptional in some regard. When you devote a lifetime to shaving off a fraction of a second and have a team versed in sport science then it's not all down to talent.

So you need to ask yourself which freaks you want to see performing for your entertainment.

To clarify, do you think women and men shouldn't have separate competitions at all? 

I'm just wondering, because if you see being male vs being female as a difference that is just as small as being a person with more hemoglobin than the other, then I don't see why you would think male and female should be separated at all.

(April 3, 2017 at 2:02 pm)wallym Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 1:50 pm)Mathilda Wrote: You have also deliberately ignored the fact that post-op on hormones transwomen will lose any physical advantage of having had a  male body  both in muscle mass and yes also bone structure if given enough time. A year is not enough. Your deliberately selective and emotive examples suggest an alternative agenda.

I asked this earlier. Hypothetically,  If you take an average NBA Center, how long would it take for the 7'0 player to turn into an average WNBA Center?  (who are typically 6'6 or so)?

I don't know but your body is being constantly regenerated and hormones continually reshape a body over many years. A trans woman who had been on hormone blockers since puberty for example woiuld have zero advantage over a ciswoman. Pre-op trans women have a higher dose of oestrogen to counteract their testosterone. Post op they are given generic hrt that ciswomen get. Best to be more stringent about length of time and dose of hormones rather than ban trans people outright.

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(April 3, 2017 at 2:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 2:07 pm)Mathilda Wrote: Sport is just a form of entertainment for the masses and is  also extremely selective. You can't play professional basketball if you are not tall enough no matter how good you are. And not all sports have a  physical advantage for men. So I am personally fine with banning trans people at professional levels if other unfair physical advantages were banned as well, for example people born with excess hemoglobin in the blood, intersex people etc. But then you'd just end up with mediocre athletes, because the best athletes are all basically exceptional in some regard. When you devote a lifetime to shaving off a fraction of a second and have a team versed in sport science then it's not all down to talent.

So you need to ask yourself which freaks you want to see performing for your entertainment.

To clarify, do you think women and men shouldn't have separate competitions at all? 

I'm just wondering, because if you see being male vs being female as a difference that is just as small as being a person with more hemoglobin than the other, then I don't see why you would think male and female should be separated at all.

Depends on the sport. Paragliding for example does not differentiate.

(April 3, 2017 at 1:50 pm)Mathilda Wrote: Stop being histrionic Shell. How many sports involve beating in faces?

Nice try. We were literally talking about a specific sport where that happens and a trans woman was dominating a few pages back before you decided to declare the topic unfit for conversation and derail the thread.

Quote:You are also wrong in that women can fight as well as men,  just differently according to body type.

Bullshit. There is absolutely no evidence to back this up. Also, you worded that shit, so I assume you mean women can't fight as well as men. Take an elite MMA fighter and pit her against an elite male MMA fighter in the same weight class and see what happens. All else equal except gender and there is no competition.

Quote:Ciswoman vs ciswoman in combat will still get equally damaged. Suggesting that women can't punch or kick properly is wrong and insulting to all women trained in combat sports / arts.

Are you high? Who said women can't punch or kick properly?

Quote:I have personally trained women in thai boxing.

Congratulations? Fight men and get back to me on that.

Quote:You have also deliberately ignored the fact that post-op on hormones transwomen will lose any physical advantage of having had a  male body  both in muscle mass and yes also bone structure if given enough time. A year is not enough. Your deliberately selective and emotive examples suggest an alternative agenda.

Firstly, I didn't ignore anything. I've said time and again that I'm not sure if the advantage is there, and I would like to see a scientific study on that, not some random on the Internet assuring me that she is a thai boxer and an endocrinologist. You can think I have an "alternative agenda" all day long. It won't change the facts. You know, this could have been a logical conversation had you not snubbed your nose at it. I am not, and have not been for several pages, interested in discussing the details of this topic with you. Your angry leftist rants are as insane as any angry right-wing rant to me. What could I possibly get out of entertaining you?

(April 3, 2017 at 2:07 pm)Mathilda Wrote: Sport is just a form of entertainment for the masses and is  also extremely selective. You can't play professional basketball if you are not tall enough no matter how good you are. And not all sports have a  physical advantage for men. So I am personally fine with banning trans people at professional levels if other unfair physical advantages were banned as well, for example people born with excess hemoglobin in the blood, intersex people etc. But then you'd just end up with mediocre athletes, because the best athletes are all basically exceptional in some regard. When you devote a lifetime to shaving off a fraction of a second and have a team versed in sport science then it's not all down to talent.

So you need to ask yourself which freaks you want to see performing for your entertainment.

The thing is, what you're calling for...restriction free competition, exists.  It's the NBA.  MLB.  NFL.  NHL.  Basically, all sports that are thought of as "Men's sports" are really just restriction free sports.  There just aren't any women, because men are better at almost everything.  (well, not paragliding, I guess.)

So maybe you've solved it.  Everybody goes into the same pool.    A bummer for the ladies, that there will be no college scholarships or pro sports careers (is there pro paragliding?).  But it is what you say is fair.

I want to kudos you Wallym, but while I know you mean "men are better at all sports," you said "men are better at everything," and I just can't give you the kudos.

On a side note, since we're branching off into whether women can fight as well as men, or as successfully, which is my point, I'll use an anecdote. By most measures, I've been more athletic than Tiberius my entire life. In terms of strength, I'm even stronger than him in some ways, though he can lift more than I can. I outweigh him. I've actually fought in my life, and he's a pacifist. If he were a woman, I could wipe the floor with him. When we wrestle, I can sometimes pin a limb for a moment or two, but if he was actually trying to kick my ass, he'd easily do it. His hands are huge. His reach is ridiculous. He's somehow much more powerful with little effort. He can jump farther and higher than I can. He can run faster. I've found the only thing I can do better physically thusfar is pitch a baseball overhand. That's literally it. I know it's anecdotal, but come on. My fat, lazy male friends have an advantage on me, and I've definitely noticed. I spent a lot of my life trying to be as tough as they are.

(April 3, 2017 at 2:14 pm)Mathilda Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 2:02 pm)wallym Wrote: I asked this earlier. Hypothetically,  If you take an average NBA Center, how long would it take for the 7'0 player to turn into an average WNBA Center?  (who are typically 6'6 or so)?

I don't know but your body is being constantly regenerated and hormones continually reshape a body over many years. A trans woman who had been on hormone blockers since puberty for example woiuld have zero advantage over a ciswoman. Pre-op trans women have a higher dose of oestrogen to counteract their testosterone. Post op they are given generic hrt that ciswomen get. Best to be more stringent about length of time and dose of hormones rather than ban trans people outright.

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(April 3, 2017 at 2:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: To clarify, do you think women and men shouldn't have separate competitions at all? 

I'm just wondering, because if you see being male vs being female as a difference that is just as small as being a person with more hemoglobin than the other, then I don't see why you would think male and female should be separated at all.

Depends on the sport. Paragliding for example does not differentiate.

Ok. What about running, swimming, boxing, weight lifting, basketball, football, soccer, etc?

Those are clearly the types of sports we are referring to. When we say we don't think it's for a mtf to compete against other women, paragliding isn't exactly what we have in mind.