It depends on if hormones really are the only advantage there. If so, there you go, though I'm not entirely sure the hormone profile needing checking will be the same for both women and trans women. That would be something actual medical professionals would need to determine.

(April 4, 2017 at 1:43 pm)Shell B Wrote: It depends on if hormones really are the only advantage there. If so, there you go, though I'm not entirely sure the hormone profile needing checking will be the same for both women and trans women. That would be something actual medical professionals would need to determine.

What other advantage could trans women have that cisgendered women can't have?

Hormone profiling would have to take into account a trans history. For example by demanding 7 years post op. Cisgendered women actually have an advantage in that case because they produce more natural testosterone than a post op trans woman.

Having read a few papers I found on Google Scholar, I've realized it is much more complicated than that, and a lot less understood than people like to think. Of course, it is possible that hormones are the only advantage, but there seems to be more to it than that, considering the other posts in here by people equally as adamant as you are that there are important size, build and bone structure issues involved. Your word isn't enough to refute that. It's still being debated in the scientific community, which says a lot more than any non-expert could.

All of that being said, I hope that whether they find an advantage or not, they are able to solve the problem (the problem being the appearance of an advantage) in athletic leagues to the mutual satisfaction of everyone affected. Trans individuals deserve to be able to participate without this shadow hanging over their heads. If I was trans, I would want to know whether or not I had an unfair advantage, and I would want other people to know. If you're right, more research and discussion will only disprove the advantage, which will only be fantastic for the trans community.

(April 4, 2017 at 3:28 pm)Shell B Wrote: Having read a few papers I found on Google Scholar, I've realized it is much more complicated than that, and a lot less understood than people like to think. Of course, it is possible that hormones are the only advantage, but there seems to be more to it than that, considering the other posts in here by people equally as adamant as you are that there are important size, build and bone structure issues involved. Your word isn't enough to refute that. It's still being debated in the scientific community, which says a lot more than any non-expert could.

Which to me suggests that there is no single advantage trans women have that cisgendered women can't also have because of other causes. So why single out transsexuals?

I think you might have identified the cause about it being the perception of advantage.

(April 4, 2017 at 5:30 pm)Mathilda Wrote:

(April 4, 2017 at 3:28 pm)Shell B Wrote: Having read a few papers I found on Google Scholar, I've realized it is much more complicated than that, and a lot less understood than people like to think. Of course, it is possible that hormones are the only advantage, but there seems to be more to it than that, considering the other posts in here by people equally as adamant as you are that there are important size, build and bone structure issues involved. Your word isn't enough to refute that. It's still being debated in the scientific community, which says a lot more than any non-expert could.

Which to me suggests that there is no single advantage trans women have that cisgendered women can't also have because of other causes. So why single out transsexuals?

I think you might have identified the cause about it being the perception of advantage.

A similar argument where you hear this, is in race.  White folks object to "Black scholarships" and the "NAACP" and things of that nature, because some black people have the same advantages of some white folks.  Barack Obama is president after all!  So why single out white people!?  (I do not agree with that either)

This is not comparable to race by a long stretch.

The entire point of this thread is to discuss whether trans people have an advantage because they are different from biological women in demonstrable ways, which is mitigated to some degree or 100% (this is what's up for debate) by transitioning. That's why they're singled out. They are not biologically female, which has historically been the criteria. New criteria need to be made. Something fairly new is happening, and that fairly new thing is trans people competing in sports. Women have always been there. Therefore, trans women are being singled out as the new kids on the block. Once there is enough scientific evidence, and enough competition has shown they women and trans women are comparable in sporting events, there will be a solution that may not single out trans women. We don't know yet because we're not there yet. I wish them the best of luck, and I hope some really great researchers get on this without being stifled by the PC crowd, so the question can be put to rest.

(April 4, 2017 at 8:17 pm)Shell B Wrote: This is not comparable to race by a long stretch.

The entire point of this thread is to discuss whether trans people have an advantage because they are different from biological women in demonstrable ways, which is mitigated to some degree or 100% (this is what's up for debate) by transitioning. That's why they're singled out. They are not biologically female, which has historically been the criteria. New criteria need to be made. Something fairly new is happening, and that fairly new thing is trans people competing in sports. Women have always been there. Therefore, trans women are being singled out as the new kids on the block. Once there is enough scientific evidence, and enough competition has shown they women and trans women are comparable in sporting events, there will be a solution that may not single out trans women. We don't know yet because we're not there yet. I wish them the best of luck, and I hope some really great researchers get on this without being stifled by the PC crowd, so the question can be put to rest.

Why isn't it comparable to race? Neither is a lifestyle choice.

You refer to biological women, what exactly is biological? Aren't hormones part of our biology? Or are you referring to the Y chromosone? In which case how do trans women genetics confer any advantage? And what about non trans women who aren't XX who have been able to compete but we have only historically recently found out about with widespread genetic testing? What does it mean to be a biological woman?

Natal or cisgendered women are better expressions for this reason.

Also please leave out the whole idea of the PC crowd stifling debate. If people take personal offence at something then expressing that offence is no more PC then when you also object to something. Trans people should not have to put up and shut up (which has until very, very recently been the case) any more than you do.

To use a PC phrase, check your privilege.

Fuck's sake, you like to look for shit to be offended about, huh? How's that working out for you? Generally happy? Bet you're the life of the party. Tata, Mathilda.

Edit: Has anyone asked trans people to shut up in this thread? Anybody? Oh, yeah, those pesky strawmen.

It's not comparable to race because people of different races compete against each other.

We are talking about an athlete who was born male, and so would have competed against males, transitioning to female, and now competing against females. This has never been about whether someone chooses to be trans. This is about the fact that someone who at one time could compete against men, and now competes against women, just might have an unfair advantage against those women.

Hey, Tibs. Have you seen my privilege? I seem to have lost it the day I was born and brought home to the projects where I was raised in utter poverty with four and then five other children. I wish I had it when I just left school and no one gave a shit or when I was arrested for having a tiny nugget of pot after the cops were called because my then boyfriend was threatening me and refusing to get out of my car in a grocery store parking lot. That imaginary privilege really could have come in handy at many points during my life. Could you see if maybe it's in the hall closet, darling? I might see if I can use it when we go to get a home loan with money we've saved completely by ourselves. Maybe they'll give me the "white girl" rate instead of the "white trash" one I've been looking forward to.