I do not speak for every individual atheist, but I can say in a general sense the following. Now before anyone jumps to conclusions this thread is NOT to call any individual out. I have said to not just people on this website, but also on other social media, such as FACEBOOK and Twitter and other atheist websites general statements to theists similar to what you are about to read.

If a Muslim or Christian or Jew or Hindu or Buddhist get anything about atheists know this, we are individuals, not a gang. We have all sorts of diverse views and come from different classes different nations with different upbringings. We don't always agree on politics or economics. I have run into individual atheists in my 16 years whom I didn't agree with and even hate that person as an individual, just like I am sure there are atheists on this board who may not like me personally. 

I really do find good and see empathy in followers of religion, I simply don't think they understand where their empathy is really coming from. I see good in the life of Ann Frank who said "In spite of everything I still believe humans are good at heart", something to that effect. I agree, it was extremely insightful yes, very compassionate considering the horrors going on around her. But that does not prove the Jewish God Yahweh to be a real god, much less the one god claimed. 

I can also value the empathy of Martin Luther King Jr, and his value of the idea of "The better minorities do the better off everyone is". Again, I agree, but that also does not prove that the god of the bible is the one real god, much less the only god claimed.

I can value the likes of Ghandi but again, standing up to colonial conquest would not make all the gods of India real gods. I can value the likes of Malala, who rightfully stood up to the oppression of girls/women in Islam, but again, that would not prove Allah the one real god. 

You can find acts of compassion in every history yes. You can find depictions of kindness and calls to charity in every religious history. The common dodge is the fallacy of "that is just god speaking different languages". No, that does not say to me there is a god, that says to me that it was always in our genes. It is the same false perception humans have with other superstitions like thinking a lucky bat or lucky socks in sports helps you win a game. 

This website is not here to advocate any government to force the end of any religion. I am not here to call for harm to theists or to advocate government take away theists rights. I can say safely that this website is here for both atheists and theists to have those uncomfortable debates. Nobody is going to follow anyone home after you log off and stalk you or harm you. But if you think this was a place where we'd simply say "that's nice, where do I join up" or 'thank you for saving us", you are fooling yourself. 

I have seen this kneejerk reaction from theists for 16 years, not just here. Some come in with a preconceived notion that they have a magic bullet of an argument and are shocked when we don't roll over suddenly. I can say with this website that the admins and mods do a very good job of allowing theists a voice here. If we hated every theist in the world and thought every theist was evil, we wouldn't allow theists to post her. But again, I say that about this website, but in general most atheist websites are very open to having theists there. But as individuals at least for myself, we hate preaching. It is not the theists job to save atheists like we are lost puppies. 


To us is is strictly about evidence and logic. As individuals we also interact differently too. Some atheists here prefer a more library type conversation, while others here, like me don't have a problem being blunt. But the same can be said all over social media with other atheists, not just this website. 

My point is, treat us as individuals, here and anywhere and even in person face to face. Learn to separate your legal rights to make a claim, which are NOT in jeopardy, and the ability to demonstrate the credibility of what you are claiming. But again, that applies equally to anyone of any religion. I think the more theists do that, the more they will understand atheists are not evil baby eaters, although we do barbecue kittens.

You spoke the truth, amazing post. Bottom line is, I have nothing against theists as long as they do not interact with my beliefs and attempt to convert me to some other ideology. We can treat each other as normal humans regardless of our views.

(April 6, 2017 at 11:39 am)Flavius Wrote: You spoke the truth, amazing post. Bottom line is, I have nothing against theists as long as they do not interact with my beliefs and attempt to convert me to some other ideology. We can treat each other as normal humans regardless of our views.

Yes and no. Yes we should always value human rights, even the right for others to make claims that make us want to pull our hair out. But no, I don't have to treat, nor should any western born pluralist, claims of authoritarianism based on religion with the same value, anymore than both the western theist or western atheist values the worship of a dictator one one party state. 

I will never value and will always combat any concept of religious, political, economic view or even business model as either or absolutism, something to let go completely or never allow, but case by case. It depends. My position is more about accepting that we don't live in a utopia and and not even atheists will get everything they want all the time. 

I do have problems with all theistic logic. I don't however have a problem with my fellow humans ability to be good or do good. I only disagree as to where the source of our species empathy is really coming from.

I attack every single religion, even my fellow atheists for the same reason, not to create a utopia, but to prevent monopolies of mindset. To foster a bigger picture that we are still all the same species.

(April 6, 2017 at 10:26 am)Brian37 Wrote: I do not speak for every individual atheist, but I can say in a general sense the following. Now before anyone jumps to conclusions this thread is NOT to call any individual out. I have said to not just people on this website, but also on other social media, such as FACEBOOK and Twitter and other atheist websites general statements to theists similar to what you are about to read.

If a Muslim or Christian or Jew or Hindu or Buddhist get anything about atheists know this, we are individuals, not a gang. We have all sorts of diverse views and come from different classes different nations with different upbringings. We don't always agree on politics or economics. I have run into individual atheists in my 16 years whom I didn't agree with and even hate that person as an individual, just like I am sure there are atheists on this board who may not like me personally. 

I really do find good and see empathy in followers of religion, I simply don't think they understand where their empathy is really coming from. I see good in the life of Ann Frank who said "In spite of everything I still believe humans are good at heart", something to that effect. I agree, it was extremely insightful yes, very compassionate considering the horrors going on around her. But that does not prove the Jewish God Yahweh to be a real god, much less the one god claimed. 

I can also value the empathy of Martin Luther King Jr, and his value of the idea of "The better minorities do the better off everyone is". Again, I agree, but that also does not prove that the god of the bible is the one real god, much less the only god claimed.

I can value the likes of Ghandi but again, standing up to colonial conquest would not make all the gods of India real gods. I can value the likes of Malala, who rightfully stood up to the oppression of girls/women in Islam, but again, that would not prove Allah the one real god. 

You can find acts of compassion in every history yes. You can find depictions of kindness and calls to charity in every religious history. The common dodge is the fallacy of "that is just god speaking different languages". No, that does not say to me there is a god, that says to me that it was always in our genes. It is the same false perception humans have with other superstitions like thinking a lucky bat or lucky socks in sports helps you win a game. 

This website is not here to advocate any government to force the end of any religion. I am not here to call for harm to theists or to advocate government take away theists rights. I can say safely that this website is here for both atheists and theists to have those uncomfortable debates. Nobody is going to follow anyone home after you log off and stalk you or harm you. But if you think this was a place where we'd simply say "that's nice, where do I join up" or 'thank you for saving us", you are fooling yourself. 

I have seen this kneejerk reaction from theists for 16 years, not just here. Some come in with a preconceived notion that they have a magic bullet of an argument and are shocked when we don't roll over suddenly. I can say with this website that the admins and mods do a very good job of allowing theists a voice here. If we hated every theist in the world and thought every theist was evil, we wouldn't allow theists to post her. But again, I say that about this website, but in general most atheist websites are very open to having theists there. But as individuals at least for myself, we hate preaching. It is not the theists job to save atheists like we are lost puppies. 


To us is is strictly about evidence and logic. As individuals we also interact differently too. Some atheists here prefer a more library type conversation, while others here, like me don't have a problem being blunt. But the same can be said all over social media with other atheists, not just this website. 

My point is, treat us as individuals, here and anywhere and even in person face to face. Learn to separate your legal rights to make a claim, which are NOT in jeopardy, and the ability to demonstrate the credibility of what you are claiming. But again, that applies equally to anyone of any religion. I think the more theists do that, the more they will understand atheists are not evil baby eaters, although we do barbecue kittens.

^^^This^^^


Addendum to add "Or we'll kill you!"

(April 6, 2017 at 5:17 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(April 6, 2017 at 10:26 am)Brian37 Wrote: I do not speak for every individual atheist, but I can say in a general sense the following. Now before anyone jumps to conclusions this thread is NOT to call any individual out. I have said to not just people on this website, but also on other social media, such as FACEBOOK and Twitter and other atheist websites general statements to theists similar to what you are about to read.

If a Muslim or Christian or Jew or Hindu or Buddhist get anything about atheists know this, we are individuals, not a gang. We have all sorts of diverse views and come from different classes different nations with different upbringings. We don't always agree on politics or economics. I have run into individual atheists in my 16 years whom I didn't agree with and even hate that person as an individual, just like I am sure there are atheists on this board who may not like me personally. 

I really do find good and see empathy in followers of religion, I simply don't think they understand where their empathy is really coming from. I see good in the life of Ann Frank who said "In spite of everything I still believe humans are good at heart", something to that effect. I agree, it was extremely insightful yes, very compassionate considering the horrors going on around her. But that does not prove the Jewish God Yahweh to be a real god, much less the one god claimed. 

I can also value the empathy of Martin Luther King Jr, and his value of the idea of "The better minorities do the better off everyone is". Again, I agree, but that also does not prove that the god of the bible is the one real god, much less the only god claimed.

I can value the likes of Ghandi but again, standing up to colonial conquest would not make all the gods of India real gods. I can value the likes of Malala, who rightfully stood up to the oppression of girls/women in Islam, but again, that would not prove Allah the one real god. 

You can find acts of compassion in every history yes. You can find depictions of kindness and calls to charity in every religious history. The common dodge is the fallacy of "that is just god speaking different languages". No, that does not say to me there is a god, that says to me that it was always in our genes. It is the same false perception humans have with other superstitions like thinking a lucky bat or lucky socks in sports helps you win a game. 

This website is not here to advocate any government to force the end of any religion. I am not here to call for harm to theists or to advocate government take away theists rights. I can say safely that this website is here for both atheists and theists to have those uncomfortable debates. Nobody is going to follow anyone home after you log off and stalk you or harm you. But if you think this was a place where we'd simply say "that's nice, where do I join up" or 'thank you for saving us", you are fooling yourself. 

I have seen this kneejerk reaction from theists for 16 years, not just here. Some come in with a preconceived notion that they have a magic bullet of an argument and are shocked when we don't roll over suddenly. I can say with this website that the admins and mods do a very good job of allowing theists a voice here. If we hated every theist in the world and thought every theist was evil, we wouldn't allow theists to post her. But again, I say that about this website, but in general most atheist websites are very open to having theists there. But as individuals at least for myself, we hate preaching. It is not the theists job to save atheists like we are lost puppies. 


To us is is strictly about evidence and logic. As individuals we also interact differently too. Some atheists here prefer a more library type conversation, while others here, like me don't have a problem being blunt. But the same can be said all over social media with other atheists, not just this website. 

My point is, treat us as individuals, here and anywhere and even in person face to face. Learn to separate your legal rights to make a claim, which are NOT in jeopardy, and the ability to demonstrate the credibility of what you are claiming. But again, that applies equally to anyone of any religion. I think the more theists do that, the more they will understand atheists are not evil baby eaters, although we do barbecue kittens.

^^^This^^^


Addendum to add "Or we'll kill you!"

SHUT UP TRAITOR, you are the atheist Ned Flanders from the Simpsons, "Can't let this little doozie get out". 

We must let the theist think we are vampires, demons. We must let them think we are the fine print in in a cell phone cable contract. It is only by deception we can fool them.

Yes.

"Deception".

Hello all.

I certainly agree that all who engage in debate should understand that the individual is not the group and we can definitely love the theist while hating the theism; they are after all our fellow human beings, children of nature who share the Earth with us.

That the tracks of their deity beliefs have often defiled humanity makes it difficult to accept any benign intent and yet, intelligent atheists can see that often that intent is there. Humans have a tendency to twist everything into something destructive and religions are no exception.

When a person's reasoning and logic begins and ends with ancient texts of questionable authority cobbled together by superstitious power mongers, we must assume that they are operating with a handicap. It may serve them well, so they think, but it is not what is required to live a fulfilling and honorable life.

The dogmatic requirements of some sects to keep them safe from demonic influence and the reliance upon prayer and the study of scripture is to my mind an incredible waste of time and energy. But...that is their choice. And if debate is part of the way they get the message to non-believers, that too is their choice. I understand that. I am forever amazed that Christians believe that I am "seeking" something and that they are here to help me find it.

It passes the time, while allowing me to foster the atheistic point of view...well, my own anyway...and renews my "faith" in my own reasoning and ethical code.

-Jeanne

(April 8, 2017 at 10:22 am)Jeanne Wrote: Hello all.

I certainly agree that all who engage in debate should understand that the individual is not the group and we can definitely love the theist while hating the theism; they are after all our fellow human beings, children of nature who share the Earth with us.

That the tracks of their deity beliefs have often defiled humanity makes it difficult to accept any benign intent and yet, intelligent atheists can see that often that intent is there.  Humans have a tendency to twist everything into something destructive and religions are no exception.

When a person's reasoning and logic begins and ends with ancient texts of questionable authority cobbled together by superstitious power mongers, we must assume that they are operating with a handicap.  It may serve them well, so they think, but it is not what is required to live a fulfilling and honorable life.  

The dogmatic requirements of some sects to keep them safe from demonic influence and the reliance upon prayer and the study of scripture is to my mind an incredible waste of time and energy.  But...that is their choice.  And if debate is part of the way they get the message to non-believers, that too is their choice.  I understand that.  I am forever amazed that Christians believe that I am "seeking" something and that they are here to help me find it.

It passes the time, while allowing me to foster the atheistic point of view...well, my own anyway...and renews my "faith" in my own reasoning and ethical code.

-Jeanne

This message was not aimed at solely Christians or Christianity. I include every single religion worldwide, including Hindu and Buddhist. It is a romantic myth by many in the west that Buddhism is superstition free. If you do research in the earliest known mythology of the first Buddha you'd know even that character is born from a Royal mother in Queen Maya who is told by the divine world that she would give birth to Buddha as a gift of wisdom to the world and his birth also in that mythology also avoids the birth canal.

Again, I do not point these things out because I hate my fellow humans, but simpy in that I hate bad logic, and considering how far our species has progressed with the modern tools of science, I find it unnecessary to cling to bad and old claims. Just like most humans no longer buy into claims of Apollo or Thor.

If our species never questioned social norms our species never would have left the caves.

Quote:we can definitely love the theist while hating the theism

Some of them make it really difficult, though.

(April 8, 2017 at 11:11 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:we can definitely love the theist while hating the theism

Some of them make it really difficult, though.

Yes, like right wing megga preachers. I used to live in Fuckwell's city. Even the other conservative churches there that were not part of his family rule, hated him. And I used to work at a pizza joint close to his degree mill of a college. I cant begin to tell you when some of his students listened to my objections about how he fucking shot his mouth off, how many of them apologized for their religion. 

But Minn, I will also go after my fellow atheists when they postulate stupid things too, like "religion must die". On a planet of 7 billion, good luck with that. There still is no such thing as a utopia, not even for atheists. I only agree that religion does not deserve a pedestal, but humans always should have legal protection under government equally. While we have the right to challenge, debate, even ridicule and blaspheme religion, theists of all labels still should have the right to make their claims.

I think if all sides are out in the open, facts win out, god of the gaps arguments and superstition lose over time. I feel no need to use government force to silence any religion. I think when the get challenged to prove it, the sunlight of scrutiny puts them in a very impossible position from a fact logic standpoint.