(May 10, 2017 at 12:29 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Ok...I don't disagree with that for the most part, and do not think that the meme need change any of that.

I do see however think that your comment is based mostly on what was not said, but your assumptions (and possibly misunderstandings).  

I believe this is why you misunderstand the meme posted.

Oh, we understand what it's trying to say.  It's just what it's saying is inane.

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(May 10, 2017 at 12:55 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The message of the meme is pretty clear. Salvation has nothing to do with how good we think we are; but rather, on our acknowledgement of our shortcomings, requesting, and accepting God's forgiveness. This in no way negates the fact that a proper response to God's grace is gratitude and obedience.

As I said, inane.

(May 10, 2017 at 2:00 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 1:10 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: So a forgiven murderer will go to heaven if he repents but a compassionate and amazing atheist that never repents his 'sin' of not believing in bullshit isn't forgiven and doesn't go to heaven.

That's exactly right. That is what forgiveness means. God's love is so great that no matter how depraved or inhuman you have been He is still reaching out to you with mercy. No one earns God's love. He already loves you. All you have to do is accept it.

And yet.... there are people who are NOT depraved who he doesn't forgive.... because they don't believe in it.

Basically God is a FUCKING AMORAL CUNT.

He couldn't have got his moral priorities more wrong.

And the fact you said what I said was 'exactly right' show what a truly amoral human being YOU are. If God tortured a bunch of innocent people for fun and said it was good you'd say it must be because God said so. You have no morals.

(May 10, 2017 at 2:00 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 1:10 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: So a forgiven murderer will go to heaven if he repents but a compassionate and amazing atheist that never repents his 'sin' of not believing in bullshit isn't forgiven and doesn't go to heaven.

That's exactly right. That is what forgiveness means. God's love is so great that no matter how depraved or inhuman you have been He is still reaching out to you with mercy. No one earns God's love. He already loves you. All you have to do is accept it.

AAhhh....Conditional love. Makes you feel warm all over.

(May 10, 2017 at 2:00 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 1:10 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: So a forgiven murderer will go to heaven if he repents but a compassionate and amazing atheist that never repents his 'sin' of not believing in bullshit isn't forgiven and doesn't go to heaven.

That's exactly right. 

But Chad, if a person genuinely just doesn't think God is real, how can that be held against them to such a degree that warrants going straight to Hell after they die? 

Don't you think God gives these people a chance? 

Imagine this scenario: A person goes through life without thinking God is real. Once this person dies, he sees God and says "Wow, apparently I was wrong. I can see now that You exist, and I can see that You are the embodiment of love and goodness. I am sorry for all the times that I haven't been loving or good. I want that." 

Does this person still go to Hell because they failed to realize God was real while they were alive? Or does God give them a chance to accept Him once they die and actually see Him?

So, CL, what if the person said "I can see you now God. And I think you are not real and I am hallucinating".... but that person was a lovely person while they were alive. Does God THEN send them straight to hell for not accepting him?

(May 10, 2017 at 4:17 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: So, CL, what if the person said "I can see you now God. And I think you are not real and I am hallucinating".... but that person was a lovely person while they were alive. Does God THEN send them straight to hell for not accepting him?

I think it will be very clear at the time that we die and see Him, that we are not hallucinating. I don't think it'll be possible for us to think otherwise. It will, of course, be possible for us to see Him and choose to reject Him and thus reject goodness/love, but I highly doubt it will be possible to genuinely think we are hallucinating.

This is all my opinion of course.

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But yeah, I think the point is to be fully aware of the truth, and make the decision to turn away from it anyway.

(May 10, 2017 at 3:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But Chad, if a person genuinely just doesn't think God is real, how can that be held against them to such a degree that warrants going straight to Hell after they die? Don't you think God gives these people a chance? 

First, let me say that I think the scriptures are indeterminate between eternal conscious torment and annihilation. Second, let me say that I personally do not like either option. I would much prefer universalism but that is not what the scriptures teach. There isn't anyone alive that does not have some apprehension of the divine that they could either cultivate or reject.

• "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened" - Romans 1:18-21:
  

Likewise, the notion of a righteous atheist is a red herring. Scripture is very clear about who deserves salvation: no one.

• "Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you." -Psalm 143:2
  
  "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and his word is not in us. -1 John 1:8,10
  
  "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way" -Isaiah 53:6
  

Similarly, scripture is clear that we do not attain salvation by our own efforts:

• "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" -Titus 3:5).
  
  “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." -John 6:44
  

As you know, I do not often resort to proof-texting however since you are a Christian and presumably accept the authority of God's Word, I felt it would be profitable to do so.

(May 10, 2017 at 4:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But yeah, I think the point is to be fully aware of the truth, and make the decision to turn away from it anyway.

God aside... I don't think it's possible to genuinely know goodness and choose against it.

So if God were genuinely good I don't think he could be chosen against whilst truly being known.

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@ Neo

So wait... are you saying that no one attains salvation because no one deserves it or... no one deserves it or attains it but some are given it through the mercy and grace of God when they repent and allow Him to forgive them?

Lol I sound genuinely interested lol. I'm not. I just wanted to be clear on your position. It's my eternal curiosity [emoji6]

(May 10, 2017 at 4:49 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I just wanted to be clear on your position.

I thought I was pretty clear and what I am saying has been orthodox teaching for 2000 years. No one deserves salvation based on their own merits. Salvation is entirely dependent on receiving forgiveness from Jesus Christ.

Yeah. Because God doesn't have his priorities right.

What's really important... being a good person or believing in Him?

That egotistical fuckwit says the latter.

And an ego like that after allowing parasitic worms that bore holes into the eyes of children to exist.... he's pure evil.