(May 12, 2017 at 1:39 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 1:35 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: It's still an example of the equivocation fallacy.

It was obvious that a figurative poetic definition of "heart" was being used and he equivocated it to a literal biological definition of the word "heart".

Well yeah that's what I mean, I think it was an intentional jab, not really a genuine error.  Still not great.

I mean that it's fallacious if taken as an argument.

(May 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: What we expected?  You must be one of those who claim we really do believe but reject, or we're just mad at god.

Not at all. My assumption is that you think death is the end. If annihilationism is true, then you die in the end. Not much different than what you already believe so that would n't give you much room for complaining. The only thing you wouldn't expect was to wake-up and be put on trial before being condemned to oblivion. My guess is that if that does happen, you'll be pissed.

(May 12, 2017 at 1:03 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The bible doesn't go into detail about what the afterlife will be like and how people will be judged in all the different scenarios possible. On those things, we may speculate, disagree, and have our personal opinions. I don't see why that's such a big deal. The important thing, and what actually matters, is that we all agree we can only be 100% responsible for our own souls, and we trust in God's judgement for the rest.

Yeah, the important thing is to agree to at least PART of the story, so it doesn't look like everyone has their own version of god and his plan and most are contradictory.

No, the important thing is to agree on what actually matters and applies to us. As for judgement in the afterlife, we won't be the ones doing it. We believe God will. So we don't need to know exactly how the judging will go down because it's not our job to do it.

(May 12, 2017 at 1:36 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm)Aroura Wrote: You both speak as if belief is a choice, and not a consequence.

(May 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: An analogy might help. You choose to enter a movie theater; seeing the movie is the consequence of that choice.

I didn't choose not to believe. I find it silly.

(May 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Similarly, contrition and repentance open you up to receive the Holy Spirit by means of the gospel.

But those suggest that you need to open yourself up to god, which implies that you already lean that way. I don't.

Let me give you an analogy.

You find yourself in  a  club where there are lots of men in backless chaps, but you are either aroused by them or your aren't.

You have to be "that way" inclined.

Maybe it is that way. I think Calvinists would say that you're either called to be part of the elect or you're not. I personally think that's a rather heartless position and like universalism a weak one. I would side with Sartre, people are 'condemned to be free.'

Free my ass.

(May 12, 2017 at 1:46 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: What we expected?  You must be one of those who claim we really do believe but reject, or we're just mad at god.

Not at all. My assumption is that you think death is the end. If annihilationism is true, then you die in the end. Not much different than what you already believe so that would n't give you much room for complaining. The only thing you wouldn't expect was to wake-up and be put on trial before being condemned to oblivion. My guess is that if that does happen, you'll be pissed.

No, you said that we'd still whine about judgement even tho it was what we expected.

I wouldn't be pissed. If your god is that petty, fuck him.  Since he gave me the gift of rational thinking, as well as knowing all along what I would do, and still tosses me in Hell, he's a bastard.  Eternity with an asshole like that would be just as bad.  But your comment does show how much your future reward plays in your believing.

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(May 12, 2017 at 1:54 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Maybe it is that way. I think Calvinists would say that you're either called to be part of the elect or you're not. I personally think that's a rather heartless position and like universalism a weak one. I would side with Sartre, people are 'condemned to be free.'

That's what so convenient about believing.  It's cost you nothing, it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, and you can pick and choose what is comfortable to believe.  It's not like any christian does anything they don't already agree with.  I like how american christians whine about being persecuted.  BFD, the bible says it's your lot in life, so by trying to stop persecutions, your fighting god's will.

Oh come on now Harry.... convenient or not Neo can't help believing in utter nonsense.

(May 12, 2017 at 1:55 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Free my ass.

If you want to go through life believing you are slave to fate then help yourself.

Dude what I want and what I believe is irrelevant to the truth of the matter.

Quote:Not at all. My assumption is that you think death is the end. If annihilationism is true, then you die in the end. Not much different than what you already believe so that would n't give you much room for complaining. The only thing you wouldn't expect was to wake-up and be put on trial before being condemned to oblivion. My guess is that if that does happen, you'll be pissed.

Nope the only thing that would piss me off is the presumption he's my judge and I owe him some account . I don't it would be a lark no different then if some mortal despot judged me really . As for oblivion could not care less so why not just skip the trial . The only punishment there could be that would matter is the idea of eternal life no matter how pleasant no matter what form is a torment I would not wish on Stalin. So by comparison oblivion could only be peace . but this definitely shows just how sad theism is.