(July 19, 2011 at 12:28 am)Minimalist Wrote: The "catholic" answer seems to be "fuck 'em." And they mean that literally.

(July 19, 2011 at 2:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: We are, after all, all sinners/ flawed.

Quote:We are, after all, all sinners/ flawed.

(July 19, 2011 at 2:54 pm)Kayenneh Wrote:

(July 19, 2011 at 2:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: We are, after all, all sinners/ flawed.

I can't agree with you on this one, Frodo. Sin is such a biased concept, totally dependent on opinion. If there is no "normal" and "right" to compare to, how can we be flawed? We are what we are and must make the most of it, but there is no way that the human being can be standardized. Of course you are free to think of yourself as a sinner, if you feel like it, but don't put that tag on everyone else.

(July 19, 2011 at 2:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Sounds pretty good to me annatar. To me the story is symbolic of our nature. I think it lays it out pretty spot on. We are, after all, all sinners/ flawed. Certainly good deeds get you no where... that's specifically stated elsewhere too.

The explanation.. is that this is the point of the messiah, and how that works. The bible 'documents' differring methods of atonement. Wiping everyone out doesn't work; punishing people doesn't work... all that works is God making himself the sacrifice for us; turning everything on it's head.

(July 19, 2011 at 4:08 am)Godschild Wrote: Annatar, your friend was telling you the truth about original sin. No all the events before Christ had to be, the flood removed all the people from the face of the earth so that God could start anew with mankind, they had become so evil there was no hope for humanity unless God destroyed them and started over with Noah and his family. I could go on about Abraham, the nation of Israel formed in Egypt, the Exodus and ect. but it would be a wall of text and many here would be sure to let me know it. What God did was to work through history to bring His Son into this world at the appropriate time so the Gospel of Jesus could be spread throughout the world. Like your friend told you we are not responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve, however that sin brought the ability for all to sin into this creation and the innocence of man was lost, so now we are held accountable for our own sins and no one elses, with Jesus as our savior we have the hope to escape our sin but only if we believe.

Quote:I asked this question, because I wanted to demonstrate how stupid you sound when you try to explain it. Thank you Godschild for proving my point

(July 19, 2011 at 12:53 pm)Judas BentHer Wrote:

(July 19, 2011 at 3:37 am)Godschild Wrote:

(July 19, 2011 at 2:20 am)Kayenneh Wrote: The question about original sin puzzled me exceedingly as a child. I loved to learn (still do), but I could never understand why Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat the fruit of knowledge. Knowledge, that made you understand things, made you wiser, and this was to be forbidden? The god that asks it's followers to be ignorant is truly an asshole, knowledge will never be seen as sin by me.

Who ever taught you about original sin and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil should be ashamed of what they taught and I hope they are not teaching such anymore. God did not create people ignorant nor does He want people to be ignorant of the truth, God did however want everyone to be innocent but Adam and Eve sure messed that up.

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The tree of Gnosis or knowledge was said by god to contain the fruit that would bestow understanding of good and evil. While the second tree, the fruit of which bore the gift of eternal life and which Eve did not eat, was still forbidden and it's fruit promised to bestow the same characteristic as what was possessed by the gods. (Refer to the plural deific references throughout Genesis during the creation epic. "We" "Our" "Eloheim".) Eternal life.

Innocence, is that what is exampled in a newborn child. They're completely open to the experience of this world, without the knowledge of how it works or what it all means, until parent(s), guardian(s), teachers and/or community guide the child to understanding.

So to imagine an omniscient creator intended to create full grown humans who bore the innocence of a newborn all their days, is to think god prefers ignorance over wisdom. An adult today who bears the mind of a newborn is considered both mentally and emotionally retarded. They're unable to function in society and are viewed as disabled.

If one first believes god created the first humans in "our" image and likeness, it is impossible for the first humans to remain innocent as full sized newborns because the source of their becoming was the most powerful entities in all of the creation they were responsible for bringing into existence. Omniscient, omnipotent power created mortal flesh from themselves and thus in their image and likeness.
And had a state of perpetual innocence been intended in the first place by god, he would have known better than to attempt to make Adam and Eve understand his rules about eating the fruits of the two forbidden tree's he planted in the garden and then forbid them to eat thereof.

Like unto an innocent newborn that can not reason for itself, so too would Adam and Eve have been. They would have never possessed the capacity to reason or make an informed choice as to whether or not to exercise the free will that's so often claimed was their responsibility and thus what caused them to bear the burden of sin, because they as you say were innocent. And that means they would be incapable of consciously willingly choosing to disobey god's command not to eat of the fruits. Like unto a newborn they would have depended on guidance to tell them what to do. Which is why Eve first said she was told not to eat of the fruits, when the serpent tempted her to. And yet, like unto a child, she was led to believe she could trust a higher authority which she wouldn't have known, being innocent, was Satan who was not to be trusted, and so as she'd been guided by god's voice in the garden she was guided by the voice of the serpent too.

The only opportunity for Eve and Adam to have been responsible for exercising their intellect in making an informed choice as to willfully disobey god regarding the fruit of the two tree's would have been after knowledge, Gnosis, was bestowed upon them by eating of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge.

So when you insist Adam and Eve were innocent and Omniscience intended that they remain as such, not only is that impossible because an all knowing god would have been aware of the destiny to befall Adam and Eve before they were created of him, but it's also saying that god damned innocence for it's condition of being ignorant.
Which is true to this day. Because, according to the Christian myth, all humans are sinners in the womb. They're born in deficit, as sinners due to the burden of Adam and Eve's original sin being bestowed upon them by god's will. Damned from birth. An infinite curse for a finite event that transpired when two innocent people, like unto children, did as they were told because they were made to know no better.

Of all the Omni characteristics Bible god is said to possess, Omnibenevolence is one he's not worthy of. He created the first of our kind as innocents. And then he condemned them for it, because omniscience knew more than they did. And omnipresence watched it all happen as planned.

It is impossible for your god to be about forgiveness when what is now asked by the faithful to be forgiven by him is their sinful state of being, according to his willful creation of them bearing that damnable deficit today because he could not forgive the first of our kind for going innocently astray, because they did not bear the intellect to reason their way unto obedience of him.

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(July 19, 2011 at 7:44 pm)annatar Wrote:

(July 19, 2011 at 2:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Sounds pretty good to me annatar. To me the story is symbolic of our nature. I think it lays it out pretty spot on. We are, after all, all sinners/ flawed. Certainly good deeds get you no where... that's specifically stated elsewhere too.

The explanation.. is that this is the point of the messiah, and how that works. The bible 'documents' differring methods of atonement. Wiping everyone out doesn't work; punishing people doesn't work... all that works is God making himself the sacrifice for us; turning everything on it's head.

So, are you saying god screwed over and over before he came up with the crucifixion idea? Or those stories didn't actually occurred? If so, the question is not addressing you, coz I need someone who believes those thins as real. All I have to say to you is we are not sinners, but your god is. By allowing so much evil has been done in his name, he did the most terrible thing. Sometimes, doing nothing is the most terrible crime... Think of Hitler, he didn't do all those terrible things, he didn't even ordered most of them, people did for his name. And god is no different than Hitler. And the idea of everyone is sinner is pure bullshit. I don't know how you define sin but I've never harmed anyone directly or indirectly. If you think wanking is a sin, suit yourself...

(July 19, 2011 at 4:08 am)Godschild Wrote: Annatar, your friend was telling you the truth about original sin. No all the events before Christ had to be, the flood removed all the people from the face of the earth so that God could start anew with mankind, they had become so evil there was no hope for humanity unless God destroyed them and started over with Noah and his family. I could go on about Abraham, the nation of Israel formed in Egypt, the Exodus and ect. but it would be a wall of text and many here would be sure to let me know it. What God did was to work through history to bring His Son into this world at the appropriate time so the Gospel of Jesus could be spread throughout the world. Like your friend told you we are not responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve, however that sin brought the ability for all to sin into this creation and the innocence of man was lost, so now we are held accountable for our own sins and no one elses, with Jesus as our savior we have the hope to escape our sin but only if we believe.

If I remember correctly, god had to be all powerful right? So how come there was no other way than destroying every soul in the world including innocent children?? And remember, It was not their fault to be such sinners, It was because they were cursed by their ancestors (Adam and Eve not apes). So he killed all those people just to make things go according to his plan? Damn, its more idiotic than I thought.. And you're saying that the guy who came up with those ideas, also created the whole universe??
I asked this question, because I wanted to demonstrate how stupid you sound when you try to explain it. Thank you Godschild for proving my point...

(July 20, 2011 at 2:39 am)Godschild Wrote: Man you sure wasted alot of time with your nonsense, please try to spend it more wisely. I know you were trying to make a joke of innocence but you did not, only made yourself look... well silly. Innocence as in "not guilty." Also how is it that the Tree of Life was off limits, God told Adam that only the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was off limits. The reason God took the Tree of Life from the Garden of Eden was so that man would not have to live eternally in sin. Who told you that we were paying for the sin of disobedence by Adam and Eve, this is not the case, we are responsible only for our sin and no one else sin. When Adam and Eve sinned against God it brought the nature of sin into this world and thus gave all of mankind the ability to sin, so you are responsible for your sin and I'm responsible for my sin and unforgiven sin is why one winds up in hell. Forgiveness only comes through the Son of God "our Christ" and is avalible to everyone who desires it.