(May 26, 2017 at 8:47 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(May 26, 2017 at 6:32 pm)Valyza1 Wrote: ...God only wants people to get what they deserve and cares nothing for what they experience....

How does this heaven thing work then?
Between the years 1978 1991 Jeffrey Dahmer ate seventeen blokes. Shirley, that's him well fucked, as far as going to heaven that is. But no, wait, Dahmer was baptised in 1994 and became a born again Christian. This is what fuckwit Curt Booth, a member of the Crescent Church of Christ in Oklahoma had to say at the time.

“I know Jeffrey was ready. Today, all the angels in heaven are rejoicing because Jeffrey has come home.”
Well ain’t that just fuckin sweet. No mention of those young lads he killed? Could someone pleeease tell me how heaven works. It's all sooo confusing.

Ummm, did you read my entire post? I talked about the dichotomy between Justice and Love aspects of God, and for some reason you just isolated the justice part

Quote:So, in your scenario - you've died and are face to face with god, and given a choice between eternal happiness or eternal suffering - you'd choose suffering because god hasn't fully explained all his judgment to you, and from what you do know you don't think god's being fair.

yes because unlike you I'm not a coward . who cowers to tyrants just to avoid pain . And to get rewards I don't deserve if god were evil or unjust . Sorry if I possess a quality called integrity.

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Quote:...God only wants people to get what they deserve and cares nothing for what they experience....

Then your god is a sociopath

(May 26, 2017 at 9:46 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:...God only wants people to get what they deserve and cares nothing for what they experience....

Then your god is a sociopath

Wow.
WOW.
I thought the original case of taking that quote ENTIRELY out of context was bad enough, but I didn't even stop to consider that someone wouldn't even actually read the original source and just respond entirely to the decontextualized quote. I underestimated the power of the internet yet again.

(May 26, 2017 at 6:32 pm)Valyza1 Wrote: The way I understand it, someone's motivation for rejecting God is irrelevant to the rejection itself.  From what I understand of the Christian view, the judgement of God and God's love play two different roles in the human drama.  It is, for all intents and purposes, two opposing forces, despite their emergence from the same source.  The judgement aspect of God only wants people to get what they deserve and cares nothing for what they experience.  It only wants justice, and the Christian view of justice is that everyone deserves far worse than what Jamal gets in this hypothetical situation. The opposing aspect of God to this is Love, which wants only happiness, beauty, and all the rest for everyone,  no matter how unjust they've been.  The only way to reconcile these two desires is the offering of a human model of perfection, a just human, as it were, for humans to believe in and in who's emulation to direct as much desire, ambition, and judgement as is humanly possible.  It isn't so much, with Christianity, that God pronounces judgement on this or that person, but that God offers a way to rise above that judgement.  Salvation comes from having faith in the Just embodiment of God (Jesus), not from oneself being just.  We all suck, according to Christianity.  So to reject the one way of rising above your own personal justice is, of course, to submit yourself to your own person justice, which, according to Christianity, is Hell.

How do you know all this? What if your understanding is wrong?

(May 26, 2017 at 10:53 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(May 26, 2017 at 6:32 pm)Valyza1 Wrote: The way I understand it, someone's motivation for rejecting God is irrelevant to the rejection itself.  From what I understand of the Christian view, the judgement of God and God's love play two different roles in the human drama.  It is, for all intents and purposes, two opposing forces, despite their emergence from the same source.  The judgement aspect of God only wants people to get what they deserve and cares nothing for what they experience.  It only wants justice, and the Christian view of justice is that everyone deserves far worse than what Jamal gets in this hypothetical situation. The opposing aspect of God to this is Love, which wants only happiness, beauty, and all the rest for everyone,  no matter how unjust they've been.  The only way to reconcile these two desires is the offering of a human model of perfection, a just human, as it were, for humans to believe in and in who's emulation to direct as much desire, ambition, and judgement as is humanly possible.  It isn't so much, with Christianity, that God pronounces judgement on this or that person, but that God offers a way to rise above that judgement.  Salvation comes from having faith in the Just embodiment of God (Jesus), not from oneself being just.  We all suck, according to Christianity.  So to reject the one way of rising above your own personal justice is, of course, to submit yourself to your own person justice, which, according to Christianity, is Hell.

How do you know all this? What if your understanding is wrong?

I don't "know" it, it's just what seems to make sense to me. It's not science. It's not precise or a necessarily universal way of looking at it. If I'm off base with it, then I'd certainly be off base in determining any kind of consequence. It's just my interpretation.

(May 26, 2017 at 12:23 pm)Aroura Wrote:

(May 26, 2017 at 9:50 am)Little Rik Wrote: If you only would exit the corral of mental dogmas and consider more options then you wouldn't stick to that only option.
Suppose there is God and reincarnation and the karma law and that poor child in the past life kill and rape.
Wouldn't be normal for that child to experience the same terrible feeling that he caused to other people?

Now don't come to quick conclusion once again thinking that I think that that child deserve the punishment.
That is not my job to give punishment nor to think that that child should suffer.
My job is to help that poor child to survive and do well.
At the same time if God exist and the karma exist then is in his hands to run the business to keep
justice in the universe so the people learn and the universe exist.
One more option to consider Aro would be to think that nobody really die.
Energy and consciousness are indestructible so that child will live on for ever after this terrible experience.

I have been a Christian for 28 or so years (a good portion of which I was quite dedicated, church regularly, even dreamed of being a nun).
I have been a Taoist.
I have been an atheist.
I have looked into and adopted ideas from numerous religions, such as Buddhism.
I have been a compatibilist, a dualist, a determinist, and a naturalist. 
Some of these I have discarded, some I may yet discard.

I have considered many ideas and options in my life, and even changed my points of view on more than one occasion. 
I am still open to changing my points of view.  
It seems to me that I'm not the dogmatic one. Perhaps you are projecting

As far as your guessing is turned into a solid and firm belief then you got to be very careful.
You are guessing that God did this or that without even understand why.
What about if God would have a good reason to do this or that?
Have you ever heard of the kangaroo court where people are declared guilty before real evidence is brought forward?  

(color mine)

(May 27, 2017 at 10:16 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(May 26, 2017 at 12:23 pm)Aroura Wrote: I have been a Christian for 28 or so years (a good portion of which I was quite dedicated, church regularly, even dreamed of being a nun).
I have been a Taoist.
I have been an atheist.
I have looked into and adopted ideas from numerous religions, such as Buddhism.
I have been a compatibilist, a dualist, a determinist, and a naturalist. 
Some of these I have discarded, some I may yet discard.

I have considered many ideas and options in my life, and even changed my points of view on more than one occasion. 
I am still open to changing my points of view.  
It seems to me that I'm not the dogmatic one. Perhaps you are projecting

As far as your guessing is turned into a solid and firm belief then you got to be very careful.
You are guessing that God did this or that without even understand why.
What about if God would have a good reason to do this or that?
Have you ever heard of the kangaroo court where people are declared guilty before real evidence is brought forward?  

(color mine)

I am actually guessing there is no God.  I'm just trying to understand those who continue to believe in him and believe him to be "good".  I'm pointing out they are the ones guessing, and making excuses.  They are the ones who have passed judgement and declared all of mankind guilty without evidence.

I already said my beliefs are subject to change.  Are yours?

You are still projecting.

(May 24, 2017 at 2:54 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(May 24, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Aroura Wrote: You don't think definitive answers about the nature of salvation are important??

Can't say as I've ever met a person who admits that they're a sinner deserving of death, likes what they hear about Christian salvation, but walks away because they can't definitively determine the fate of the souls of every person who's ever lived. So...no, not very important.

Then you haven't been paying much attention, John. A good cluck of people here have serious qualms with the certainty (don't play) of Hell and eternal torment with regards to your Religion.

Not that you care, but the Crux of my "Salvation" was the abandonment of other's salvation. It still is. If I got handed a free Go to Heaven card after death because somehow your god exists--I could not accept it so long as anyone from this Earth is placed in eternal punishment for their actions upon this type of set up "Creation". 
I'd spit on it, even, at the audacity of such a being, and spend eternity in hell with all the other overpowered beings rather than spend eternity in heaven listening to the laments and suffering from down below. NO ONE deserves that for this. 

(May 27, 2017 at 7:51 pm)Luckie Wrote:

(May 24, 2017 at 2:54 pm)alpha male Wrote: Can't say as I've ever met a person who admits that they're a sinner deserving of death, likes what they hear about Christian salvation, but walks away because they can't definitively determine the fate of the souls of every person who's ever lived. So...no, not very important.

Then you haven't been paying much attention, John. A good cluck of people here have serious qualms with the certainty (don't play) of Hell and eternal torment with regards to your Religion.

Not that you care, but the Crux of my "Salvation" was the abandonment of other's salvation. It still is. If I got handed a free Go to Heaven card after death because somehow your god exists--I could not accept it so long as anyone from this Earth is placed in eternal punishment for their actions upon this type of set up "Creation". 
I'd spit on it, even, at the audacity of such a being, and spend eternity in hell with all the other overpowered beings rather than spend eternity in heaven listening to the laments and suffering from down below. NO ONE deserves that for this. 

Indeed only a monster would accept paradise when people whos only crime it was to be skeptical are burning forever

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Ah the tired " but he must have reason we don't understand argument" pure hand waving

Either God exists or God does not exist. This covers 100% of all possibilities, and in either case, a fallible human being would not be able to explain God's ways to another fallible human being's satisfaction. So for the atheist side, why ask, and for the theist side, why attempt to explain?