Quote:why are there moral people who yet do not have nor need either a religion or religious text?

Brainwashing does not appeal to everyone...

Anymouse, I am not afraid of God. The only thing that you can say I could be afraid of is let's say being homeless, pain, sikness, etc. Even that I am not afraid of those things. In order for homelessness let's say not to happen I have to budget and work. Not pray to God. I don't pray.

Let's say if I was to pray to God for a girl called Ema to Mary me and God influences her in that way than he has interfered with Emas free will. And I don't think he does that. The only way I believe a God could interfere would be if you ask him into your heart when you are going through hard times. Wich is preaty much to be mindful of him.

I agree with you that you don't need God or religion in Order to be moral. I actually believe that some revealed religions make you imoral.

And like I said before it would be imoral of me to say I don't believe in God because that would be a lie. Although some times it could be imoral to say the truth. Like when life depends on what you say. I am a Deist, not a theist.
Thanks

<3 deists

(July 18, 2011 at 9:33 pm)Pel Wrote: Anymouse, I am not afraid of God. The only thing that you can say I could be afraid of is let's say being homeless, pain, sikness, etc. Even that I am not afraid of those things. In order for homelessness let's say not to happen I have to budget and work. Not pray to God. I don't pray.

Pel, I did not mean to imply that you were afraid of God or anyone else.

As for homelessness, budgeting and work will not necessarily save you, as I was homeless for nine years, courtesy of my ex-wife, a court taking 85% of my disability compensation for child support when she made $100k+, and a tornado that destroyed my home.

That said, having been homeless, I am not afraid of it either. It is a condition you learn to live with, die from, or learn to overcome, just like my epilepsy.

And most Discordians do not pray: Eris can be very fickle and give you exactly what you pray for. That's dangerous.

Wiccans likewise do not pray as such. It is more useful to work toward your goals than to ask the heavens to drop your wish upon you. Besides, it might crush you if it falls from a great enough height.
James.

How can I be afraid or even hate something which in extremely high probability does not exist?

Yahweh deserves only our indifference that we treat the millions of other gods that humans have created in their own image.

(July 20, 2011 at 7:55 am)Ziggystardust Wrote: Yahweh deserves only our indifference that we treat the millions of other gods that humans have created in their own image.

Absolutely. The whole 'god created us in his image' line just shows how arrogant human beings are.

This isn't something I'm directing at anyone, just want to comment on the idea of "fearing god". Those that believe in lets say the biblical god in all truth probably do not fear him. They believe, by self definition, that they are part of the "chosen group". The group of human beings who will avoid eternal punishment. It's always that way with believers, they conjure up a terrifying god that they themselves have no reason to fear as they are part of the "club".

We don't leverage this particular quirk of humanity solely with regards to gods. We also trot it out in social constructs, whereby one has nothing to fear from a dictator as long as he's part of the dictators club. The devoted subjects of a tyrant (earthly or heavenly) do not consider the issue of what the tyrant does to defectors one that they have to account for. It won't happen to them, or anyone like them. Since they are the "good people of such and such" obviously, those punished were defective or undesirable in some way.

Food for thought I suppose.

Actually, I believe there are plenty of believers that fear him. They may not be true believers, but they still call themselves Christian out of the fear that hell may be real.

(July 8, 2011 at 1:40 pm)Pel Wrote: I have posted this question on one of the philosophy forums but I would also like to ask the question over here. This question is mainly for monotheists or anyone else who believes in a God who dishes out punishments.

If God holds us responsible for causing harm, then why doesn't he punish him self since if he is omniscient and omnipotent then he is intentionally the major cause of all suffering.

So it would be only fair from him considering all of the natural disasters only that he should put him self in hell for eternity ? That's if he is as just and fair as he says he is!!!

Thoughts

God deserves nothing because he did nothing... Something that doesn't exist (for all practical purposes) deserves no punishment.