I'm interested in getting the Christian perspective on my thoughts below. I've posed them within threads before, but have yet to come across a counter POV. (I'm sure I'll get plenty here. [emoji41])


If God knew inherently from the "moment" he decided to create humanity that we could never possibly satisfy his ideal, and went ahead with his creation anyway, then he:

1. failed to fulfill his ideal, and therefore isn't omnipotent.

2. is wholly responsible for the failure.

How could we, as the flawed creation, possibly bear any of the responsibility for our shortcomings? If I leave my 2-year-old alone in front of plate-full of cookies with instructions not to touch, and he eats one, is it just of me to punish him afterward? I knew ahead of time the inherent "nature" of my toddler does not allow for that degree of impulse control. I have set him up to fail. Is it reasonable to hold him responsible for his disobedience?

On the other hand, if there was ever a "time" when God envisioned a particular outcome for humanity, but things unfolded differently than he originally intended, then he's not omniscient.

My understanding of the Christian narrative is that free will was always part of God's plan for humanity. So, God purposefully rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when the wild card played out exactly as he knew it would? And further, he manipulated us into believing it was our fault we failed to live up to his expectations, when in fact, it could have gone no other way. He set up a thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knew full well Adam and Eve couldn't pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.

From where I sit, these actions not only call god's supposed Omni-attributes into question, they do not seem to me the actions and decisions of what most would reasonably consider a "just being". Thoughts?

The Eden story really can't work if taken literally. Though if it's not a literal story, then it's hard to tell what use it's supposed to have. That's the problem with using metaphors and parables, and such. You just wind up confusing people, which eventually leads to bloodshed over how to interpret the same book.

(May 30, 2017 at 10:42 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'm interested in getting the Christian perspective on my thoughts below.  I've posed them within threads before, but have yet to come across a counter POV.   (I'm sure I'll get plenty here. [emoji41])


If God knew inherently from the "moment" he decided to create humanity that we could never possibly satisfy his ideal, and went ahead with his creation anyway, then he:

1.  failed to fulfill his ideal, and therefore isn't omnipotent.  

2.  is wholly responsible for the failure.  

How could we, as the flawed creation, possibly bear any of the responsibility for our shortcomings?  If I leave my 2-year-old alone in front of plate-full of cookies with instructions not to touch, and he eats one, is it just of me to punish him afterward?  I knew ahead of time the inherent "nature" of my toddler does not allow for that degree of impulse control.  I have set him up to fail.  Is it reasonable to hold him responsible for his disobedience?  

On the other hand, if there was ever a "time" when God envisioned a particular outcome for humanity, but things unfolded differently than he originally intended, then he's not omniscient.  

My understanding of the Christian narrative is that free will was always part of God's plan for humanity.  So, God purposefully rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when the wild card played out exactly as he knew it would?  And further, he manipulated us into believing it was our fault we failed to live up to his expectations, when in fact, it could have gone no other way.  He set up a thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knew full well Adam and Eve couldn't pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.  

From where I sit, these actions not only call god's supposed Omni-attributes into question, they do not seem to me the actions and decisions of what most would reasonably consider a "just being".  Thoughts?

Well, it's omniscience is pretty well done away with before it kicks A&E out of the garden. Not only did it have to go looking for them after they had their snack, it was surprised and angry when it found out they partook. An omniscient being would have known they did it and exactly where they were.

Some gawd.

Personally, I never understood the whole "perfect" gawd argument. If a being were perfect, it would be without need or want. The very idea that it had to create anything destroys the "perfect" argument as it obviously had a need or want.

Religion is setup for us to fail. How else can they sell the remedy!
Ask Norton's antivirus what they do when there's not much sales!

(May 30, 2017 at 10:59 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote:

(May 30, 2017 at 10:42 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'm interested in getting the Christian perspective on my thoughts below.  I've posed them within threads before, but have yet to come across a counter POV.   (I'm sure I'll get plenty here. [emoji41])


If God knew inherently from the "moment" he decided to create humanity that we could never possibly satisfy his ideal, and went ahead with his creation anyway, then he:

1.  failed to fulfill his ideal, and therefore isn't omnipotent.  

2.  is wholly responsible for the failure.  

How could we, as the flawed creation, possibly bear any of the responsibility for our shortcomings?  If I leave my 2-year-old alone in front of plate-full of cookies with instructions not to touch, and he eats one, is it just of me to punish him afterward?  I knew ahead of time the inherent "nature" of my toddler does not allow for that degree of impulse control.  I have set him up to fail.  Is it reasonable to hold him responsible for his disobedience?  

On the other hand, if there was ever a "time" when God envisioned a particular outcome for humanity, but things unfolded differently than he originally intended, then he's not omniscient.  

My understanding of the Christian narrative is that free will was always part of God's plan for humanity.  So, God purposefully rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when the wild card played out exactly as he knew it would?  And further, he manipulated us into believing it was our fault we failed to live up to his expectations, when in fact, it could have gone no other way.  He set up a thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knew full well Adam and Eve couldn't pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.  

From where I sit, these actions not only call god's supposed Omni-attributes into question, they do not seem to me the actions and decisions of what most would reasonably consider a "just being".  Thoughts?

Well, it's omniscience is pretty well done away with before it kicks A&E out of the garden. Not only did it have to go looking for them after they had their snack, it was surprised and angry when it found out they partook. An omniscient being would have known they did it and exactly where they were.

Some gawd.

Personally, I never understood the whole "perfect" gawd argument. If a being were perfect, it would be without need or want. The very idea that it had to create anything destroys the "perfect" argument as it obviously had a need or want.

Right.  Seems he just wanted a bunch of mini-me type creatures running around.  Pride!

(May 30, 2017 at 10:42 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'm interested in getting the Christian perspective on my thoughts below.  I've posed them within threads before, but have yet to come across a counter POV.   (I'm sure I'll get plenty here. [emoji41])


If God knew inherently from the "moment" he decided to create humanity that we could never possibly satisfy his ideal, and went ahead with his creation anyway, then he:

1.  failed to fulfill his ideal, and therefore isn't omnipotent.  

2.  is wholly responsible for the failure.  

How could we, as the flawed creation, possibly bear any of the responsibility for our shortcomings?  If I leave my 2-year-old alone in front of plate-full of cookies with instructions not to touch, and he eats one, is it just of me to punish him afterward?  I knew ahead of time the inherent "nature" of my toddler does not allow for that degree of impulse control.  I have set him up to fail.  Is it reasonable to hold him responsible for his disobedience?  

On the other hand, if there was ever a "time" when God envisioned a particular outcome for humanity, but things unfolded differently than he originally intended, then he's not omniscient.  

My understanding of the Christian narrative is that free will was always part of God's plan for humanity.  So, God purposefully rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when the wild card played out exactly as he knew it would?  And further, he manipulated us into believing it was our fault we failed to live up to his expectations, when in fact, it could have gone no other way.  He set up a thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knew full well Adam and Eve couldn't pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.  

From where I sit, these actions not only call god's supposed Omni-attributes into question, they do not seem to me the actions and decisions of what most would reasonably consider a "just being".  Thoughts?

Except that God provided a rather simple way in which one doesn't have to bear the responsibility of their shortcomings, so there is really no excuse.

The example you gave of your 2 year old is way off base, since a 2 year old isn't a free moral agent.

Say your son is 16 and it's a completely different conversation.

We use the example of a 2 year old because, if the Eden story was taken literally, then Adam and Even had no concept of good and evil/right and wrong at that point. They had no concept of death either, so saying "you'll die if you do this" is meaningless. A 16 year old has grown, and learned right from wrong, by that time, and likely understands what death is.

That "simple" way you mean is what? Jesus dying? Actually it's kind of convoluted, came long after he tried and failed other ways to solve the problem, and shows he still doesn't know how to solve an issue without killing someone. Jahova/Yahweh never learned, or grew, from his experience, so why should we worship it?

(May 30, 2017 at 10:42 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'm interested in getting the Christian perspective on my thoughts below.  I've posed them within threads before, but have yet to come across a counter POV.   (I'm sure I'll get plenty here. [emoji41])


If God knew inherently from the "moment" he decided to create humanity that we could never possibly satisfy his ideal, and went ahead with his creation anyway, then he:

1.  failed to fulfill his ideal, and therefore isn't omnipotent.  

2.  is wholly responsible for the failure.  

How could we, as the flawed creation, possibly bear any of the responsibility for our shortcomings?  If I leave my 2-year-old alone in front of plate-full of cookies with instructions not to touch, and he eats one, is it just of me to punish him afterward?  I knew ahead of time the inherent "nature" of my toddler does not allow for that degree of impulse control.  I have set him up to fail.  Is it reasonable to hold him responsible for his disobedience?  

On the other hand, if there was ever a "time" when God envisioned a particular outcome for humanity, but things unfolded differently than he originally intended, then he's not omniscient.  

My understanding of the Christian narrative is that free will was always part of God's plan for humanity.  So, God purposefully rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when the wild card played out exactly as he knew it would?  And further, he manipulated us into believing it was our fault we failed to live up to his expectations, when in fact, it could have gone no other way.  He set up a thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knew full well Adam and Eve couldn't pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.  

From where I sit, these actions not only call god's supposed Omni-attributes into question, they do not seem to me the actions and decisions of what most would reasonably consider a "just being".  Thoughts?

If your idea of Christian narritive includes the idea or hinges on the idea of 'free will' then my response for you will not be a christian one.

So If I may..

Let say God knew sin was the ultimate outcome, and you are right that makes Him responsible for all the sin in the world. That would then mean He would be obligated to eliminate or at the very least atone for sin... Meaning allow those who do not want to sin but are simply caught up in it the ability to escape the wrath of God/wage of sin...

In your idea of Christianity isn't that what Christ did?

Know it or not in the bible's version of Christianity that is indeed what Christ did. His sacrifice removes the law as our only measure of righteousness. Meaning we are not longer judged by the law to be worth of Heaven or Hell, but our worthiness comes from whether or not Christ Himself is worthy of Heaven or Hell. (if we accept his atonement) Which is why I and the bible never mentions 'free will,' But the opposite. In that we are all slaves to sin. That we were born unto sin and will die in sin no matter what. Yet God loves us anyway. For those who do not want to die in sin He has provided atonement. however for those who wish to settle in their sin and worship themselves.. there is that option as well.

That is why God allowed Sin into the Garden, and why you are plagued with it as well. Say God has placed us all @2years old infront of a plate of cookies. God does not judge on who ate the cookie, but who was sorry they did when they were told not to.

That is what this life is all about. Not whether or not we can live sin free but rather what we do when we sin. Why? so that on our final judgement we will be assured no matter what God decides, his judgement is just.

(May 31, 2017 at 9:47 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Except that God provided a rather simple way in which one doesn't have to bear the responsibility of their shortcomings, so there is really no excuse.

But you've missed my point. Our shortcomings are god's responsibility, not ours. They are only shortcomings to HIM, in the sense that they fall short of his imagined ideal for us. Why would we need to atone for his inability to execute the ideal?

Quote:The example you gave of your 2 year old is way off base, since a 2 year old isn't a free moral agent.

But not any less of a free moral agent than Adam and Eve, so I think it's a fair analogy. God knew A&E would screw it up, just like I know my kid is going to take that cookie.

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(May 31, 2017 at 9:55 am)Drich Wrote:

(May 30, 2017 at 10:42 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'm interested in getting the Christian perspective on my thoughts below.  I've posed them within threads before, but have yet to come across a counter POV.   (I'm sure I'll get plenty here. [emoji41])


If God knew inherently from the "moment" he decided to create humanity that we could never possibly satisfy his ideal, and went ahead with his creation anyway, then he:

1.  failed to fulfill his ideal, and therefore isn't omnipotent.  

2.  is wholly responsible for the failure.  

How could we, as the flawed creation, possibly bear any of the responsibility for our shortcomings?  If I leave my 2-year-old alone in front of plate-full of cookies with instructions not to touch, and he eats one, is it just of me to punish him afterward?  I knew ahead of time the inherent "nature" of my toddler does not allow for that degree of impulse control.  I have set him up to fail.  Is it reasonable to hold him responsible for his disobedience?  

On the other hand, if there was ever a "time" when God envisioned a particular outcome for humanity, but things unfolded differently than he originally intended, then he's not omniscient.  

My understanding of the Christian narrative is that free will was always part of God's plan for humanity.  So, God purposefully rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when the wild card played out exactly as he knew it would?  And further, he manipulated us into believing it was our fault we failed to live up to his expectations, when in fact, it could have gone no other way.  He set up a thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knew full well Adam and Eve couldn't pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.  

From where I sit, these actions not only call god's supposed Omni-attributes into question, they do not seem to me the actions and decisions of what most would reasonably consider a "just being".  Thoughts?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

If your idea of Christian narritive includes the idea or hinges on the idea of 'free will' then my response for you will not be a christian one.

So If I may..

Let say God knew sin was the ultimate outcome, and you are right that makes Him responsible for all the sin in the world. That would then mean He would be obligated to eliminate or at the very least atone for sin... Meaning allow those who do not want to sin but are simply caught up in it the ability to escape the wrath of God/wage of sin...

But again...why should there be any wrath the flawed creation needs escape from in the first place when God himself is responsible for the flaw? I don't see how Christ is god's atonement. God is expecting US to atone for HIS actions. We are the ones being judged for behaving exactly the way we were created to behave.

I would never expect my 2-year-old to apologize for behaving like a 2-year-old, or, rather, for NOT behaving like a 20-year-old. What does he have to be sorry about? If I don't want him eating cookies, I don't leave him with cookies, because he is not capable of resisting.[/quote]

Quote:Yet God loves us anyway.

And why shouldn't he? If god is to be annoyed with anyone, it should be with himself, for not doing it right in the first place. Why on earth are we deserving of his punishment? Why are we being judged for actions we have no control over?

(May 31, 2017 at 9:52 am)Chad32 Wrote: We use the example of a 2 year old because, if the Eden story was taken literally, then Adam and Even had no concept of good and evil/right and wrong at that point. They had no concept of death either, so saying "you'll die if you do this" is meaningless. A 16 year old has grown, and learned right from wrong, by that time, and likely understands what death is.

First of all Adam was hanging out at a minimum of around 1000 years before Eve was even created or close to 2000 years max .. are you going to sit here and say that 16 years trumps 1000?

Also they clearly knew right from wrong seeing how they hid from God, why would you hide if you didn't know you did anything wrong?

(May 31, 2017 at 9:52 am)Chad32 Wrote: That "simple" way you mean is what? Jesus dying? Actually it's kind of convoluted, came long after he tried and failed other ways to solve the problem, and shows he still doesn't know how to solve an issue without killing someone. Jahova/Yahweh never learned, or grew, from his experience, so why should we worship it?

The only way that you need be concerned about is to repent and be baptized.

Just like Naaman in the Old Testament seeking a cure for leprosy was told to go dip himself 7 times in the Jordan river, but those instructions seemed ridiculous, because in his mind, there were better rivers to utilize than the Jordan.

Why are you so concerned with how God chose to remit sin? Just be content that there is a simple way for your sin to be remitted.

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(May 31, 2017 at 10:12 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(May 31, 2017 at 9:47 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Except that God provided a rather simple way in which one doesn't have to bear the responsibility of their shortcomings, so there is really no excuse.

But you've missed my point.  Our shortcomings are god's responsibility, not ours.  They are only shortcomings to HIM, in the sense that they fall short of his imagined ideal for us.  Why would we need to atone for his inability to execute the ideal?

That "imagined ideal" you speak of is love. Did not Jesus state that the greatest commandments were to love God with all your heart, and to love thy neighbor as thyself? Did he also not state that ALL the law and prophets hang on those two commandments?

If everyone loved God and loved their neighbor as themselves, that would cure 100% of the worlds problems. War wouldn't exist, poverty wouldn't exist, prisons wouldn't exist, the list goes on.

What has God to do with your ability to love?

(May 31, 2017 at 10:12 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: The example you gave of your 2 year old is way off base, since a 2 year old isn't a free moral agent.


But not any less of a free moral agent than Adam and Eve, so I think it's a fair analogy.  God knew A&E would screw it up, just like I know my kid is going to take that cookie.

Of course God knew Adam and Eve would mess up, if he didn't then he wouldn't be God, but before God created Adam and Eve he was a savior, hence why the scriptures state that the lamb was slain before the foundations of the world.

God is eternal and doesn't change, in God was certain attributes one of which was Father, you can't be a father with no children, hence Adam and Eve. Another attribute was savior, you can't be a savior without something to save. Another attribute was healer, you can't be a healer without sickness... light cannot exist without darkness.

Those things had to come into existence for Gods attributes to become manifest, and Eve was the catalyst for that, and she of her own free will caused the fall.