(June 1, 2017 at 6:40 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 1, 2017 at 5:37 pm)Aegon Wrote: I suppose I know what you mean. But to embrace the tenants of most religions, particularly Judeo-Christian beliefs, is to reject science to some degree. You just can't have it both ways. They directly and fundamentally contradict one another.

Now that's not to say that the two can't co-exist in a society; the fact that we are making better scientific progress than ever before even though religion is still plays such a huge role is proof that they can co-exist.

What are some tenets of the christian faith that would contradict science?

Jesus supposedly walked on water, transformed water into wine, magically healed cripples and lepers, and rose from the dead. If I recall correctly it is a crucial crux of Christianity to believe that stuff happened.

It'd be easy to explain how much of the Old Testament contradicts science, but I'm sure you're aware of that and I'm sure I'd get a "Christians don't follow the OT" response

(May 30, 2017 at 10:50 am)pool the matey Wrote: I don't think it's impossible. If people just be nice to each other then maybe. 


I think it's possible to hold scientifically proven worldviews while still being religious. 
After all, religion and science have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

So in my opinion - why not? It is possible. It's just a question of whether people are willing or not I guess.

I think they can and do.   I have no difficulty fitting the two together.

That might be a strong indicator that you don't know either the science, the religion, or both that you've mashed together, RR.

OFC you have no difficulty, but is that because you're doing it right, or because you don't even know what you;re supposed to be doing right?

:pitches a horseshoe in the opposite direction of the pin, yelling "fouuuuuur", scores it as a home run..... and say's:

"I don't know what all the fuss is about. Olympic rowing is easy!"

(June 1, 2017 at 6:54 pm)Aegon Wrote: Jesus supposedly walked on water, transformed water into wine, magically healed cripples and lepers, and rose from the dead. If I recall correctly it is a crucial crux of Christianity to believe that stuff happened.

It'd be easy to explain how much of the Old Testament contradicts science, but I'm sure you're aware of that and I'm sure I'd get a "Christians don't follow the OT" response

Science says it's impossible for a person to do these things, but God is a supernatural being and is not subject to natural law. Science has no way to prove whether or not God exists since it only can investigate the natural world. Since Jesus is God in the flesh I'm not rejecting any science to believe that he did these things. In that regard, today people are healed from terminal diseases and science has no explanation for how these healings occurred.

(June 1, 2017 at 1:25 pm)Lek Wrote: Co-existence works for me.  Facts are facts.  But we also must remember that many things people considered scientific facts 100 years ago are not accepted as such today.  I also don't accept science as the ultimate method of discovering truth.  If science hasn't or can't provide an answer I'm open to pursuing that answer by other means and have found answers by doing so.

I would ask "like what", but I know better.

(June 1, 2017 at 7:03 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 1, 2017 at 6:54 pm)Aegon Wrote: Jesus supposedly walked on water, transformed water into wine, magically healed cripples and lepers, and rose from the dead. If I recall correctly it is a crucial crux of Christianity to believe that stuff happened.

It'd be easy to explain how much of the Old Testament contradicts science, but I'm sure you're aware of that and I'm sure I'd get a "Christians don't follow the OT" response

Science says it's impossible for a person to do these things, but God is a supernatural being and is not subject to natural law.  Science has no way to prove whether or not God exists since it only can investigate the natural world.  Since Jesus is God in the flesh I'm not rejecting any science to believe that he did these things.  In that regard, today people are healed from terminal diseases and science has no explanation for how these healings occurred.

If science says these things are impossible then it contradicts science, end of story. Everything is subject to natural law and the laws of physics. Even if I accept that God exists I could only, at best, accept a Deist God. Because even if he is capable of anything, including the creation of our universe, he must abide by our natural laws if he were to interact with us within our universe. Jesus doing the things he did is impossible and do contradict science. 

Look, science may not always have all the answers to your questions. But that's because the questions are meaningless. Questions that humans crave answers to... what is our purpose, is there life after death, etc. Science either doesn't have answers to these types of questions or it gives an answer that people don't want to hear. I'm sympathetic to faith, honestly. But people need to admit that they're just trying to make themselves feel better, and that their beliefs certainly do contradict what we know to be true and what has been proven. I'd still be Catholic but I think almost every single Christian belief is completely and utterly wrong and nonsensical. I'm so far gone from that faith that what you're saying is ridiculous to me. Replace "God" with "Bigfoot" or "unicorns" and that's how you sound to me.

I don't want you think that I look to science for everything. I have been going through difficult times and I face the same existential questions that you do. But I can't force myself to believe something that goes against all logic. The only religious philosophy I find myself following is Taoism, but it goes along quite well with science IMO.

"OFC science and faith can coexist in my head.  Science doesn't contradict my faith, and when it does I don't trust science... because god is magic.   Besides, it can't order my dinner for me!"

-is not an example of science and faith existing without a problem in a persons head......I honestly don;t think that science -or- faith is faring very well in the heads of most who hold such a position.

Unless and until there is no religion, they do and have to.

Two ways science and faith can coexist:

#1 - A Christian might believe that science gets at the empirical facts which hold unless God plays a wild card. If the Christian is committed to believing in miracles, then he only has to believe that God suspended the empirical facts at those times. The Christian practices science for those times when no wild card is in play while remaining open to the possibility that God might for his own purposes play a wildcard at any moment.

#2 - A Christian may remain committed to the importance of maintaining a relationship with God while reading the entire bible symbolically. Such a Christian could admit to not knowing exactly what God is, what He's done or what he want us to do. Being uncommitted to any holy wild cards, such a Christian could participate in science as a functional material physicalist.

I think #1 is more common. It might be what accounts for scientists like Francis Collins. Anyone know if #2 actually exists anywhere besides my imagination?

(June 1, 2017 at 6:58 pm)Khemikal Wrote: That might be a strong indicator that you don't know either the science, the religion, or both that you've mashed together, RR.

OFC you have no difficulty, but is that because you're doing it right, or because you don't even know what you;re supposed to be doing right?

:pitches a horseshoe in the opposite direction of the pin, yelling "fouuuuuur", scores it as a home run..... and say's:

"I don't know what all the fuss is about. Olympic rowing is easy!"

I might feel the same about you...but what matters is when you get down to specifics rather than vague accusations. I'm happy to discuss either.