You know, there we have a problem that highlights why som epagan religions seem to have been much more conducive to science or anything resembling a scientific inquiry.  Their gods, conceptually, could be smaller and still be gods.  They could be limited.  Their powers had borders.  The relationships between these borders often framed the relationships between those natural events and forces to which the divine explanation was offered.

It didn't make them less religious, and it certainly doesn't seem to have helped them get things right™ but it was less obstructionist n at least one extremely important way.

(June 8, 2017 at 1:17 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(June 8, 2017 at 11:47 am)Aliza Wrote: Only some religions, and only some people within those religions. It's not a hard rule that all religions  must contradict science and must interfere in the science classroom.

Religion, even Christianity (which I see as the religion at the forefront of the anti-science campaign), can coexist if they choose to.

Religion DOES contradict science, religion requires magic.

I don't see it that way, but we can agree to disagree on the matter.

No theist sees it that way.  Except all of them.  Those other* religions that do require magic, to seemingly every theist, seem silly to theists.

Their* magic, is, ofc, not magic™.

Ask the silliest wiccan, who believs in fairy charms and love spells..whether or not christian magic is real and works. LOLNO.

Ask the most devout and earnest christian, who deeply believes in vicarious redemption..if wiccan fairy charms and love spells work. LOLNO.

(May 30, 2017 at 10:50 am)pool the matey Wrote: I don't think it's impossible. If people just be nice to each other then maybe. 


I think it's possible to hold scientifically proven worldviews while still being religious. 
After all, religion and science have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

So in my opinion - why not? It is possible. It's just a question of whether people are willing or not I guess.

No you already have people saying god will take care of climate change...
Fuck religion...

(June 8, 2017 at 11:57 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Care to give some facts to back up these claims.  You may want to read the article I posted
http://strangenotions.com/gods-philosophers/

(June 8, 2017 at 4:21 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Sure, let me check THE FACTS: I and rest of the atheists acknowledge biological evolution; you don't. Biological evolution is a scientific fact; 6 day creation is not. You were taught against scientific facts; you are against science and reason. You lose this argument.

There's a whole lot wrong here!
You may want to know what you are talking about, before you start making claims like this.  Or is there something particular that I have said, which leads you to this conclusion?

Hey you're the one that said "By the way, I am one who could say, that I don't believe in evolution, I could also say I'm skeptical; and that I believe in evolution. All depends on what you are talking about when you say evolution."

And that guy from the link you provide is not an atheist, but your classical lying-for-Jesus Christian apologetic. For instance this is what that turd writes: "the tedious internet-based "Jesus never existed!" nonsense" - oh so this is only internet invented conspiracy that has nothing to do with scholars. I guess I could call it a blatant lie, but it's just typical statement by delusional Christian.  

I mean for starters if it's so obvious that Jesus really existed why doesn't he or maybe even you tell us which Jesus really existed? Ha? Tell me? Was it woo-woo New Age Jesus who embraces gays and lesbians? Or maybe Catholic Jesus and the Orthodox Jesus and those of all the eastern sects in between? Or is it the Snake-Handler’s Jesus? The Pentecostal Jesus? The liberal and the republican Jesus? KKK’s angry Aryan Jesus and the southern gospel choir’s Black Jesus? Seventh-Day Adventist Jesus? The family-friendly Mormon Jesus that also lived in America? Or is it the Jesus being peddled on your doorstep by Jehovah’s Witnesses? But it must be the gentle, loving Quaker Jesus and the dour Calvinist Jesus? Muslim Jesus that lived in Asia after he survived Crucifixion?

But these are all Jesuses of faith, right? There must be some historical Jesus underneath all the miracles bullshit that "real scholars" recognize and have proven him, but again which one? Was the Apocalyptic Prophet real Jesus? Or First-Century Proto-Communist? Or Nonviolent Pacifist Resister? Or Violent Zealot Revolutionary? Or it must be Magician/Exorcist/Faith Healer? And what about Jesus The Essene Heretic? Well it must be Cynic philosopher Jesus the real historical Jesus? Or Conservative Rabbi Jesus that insists keeping old Jewish laws? Or maybe it's Jesus Earthy Hedonist cuz he was described in the Bible as a glutton and a drunk?

(June 8, 2017 at 1:36 pm)Khemikal Wrote: No theist sees it that way.  Except all of them.  Those other* religions that do require magic, to seemingly every theist, seem silly to theists.

Their* magic, is, ofc, not magic™.

Ask the silliest wiccan, who believs in fairy charms and love spells..whether or not christian magic is real and works.  LOLNO.

Ask the most devout and earnest christian, who deeply believes in vicarious redemption..if wiccan fairy charms and love spells work.   LOLNO.

But the question isn't whether or not science and religion are the same thing or whether they agree or disagree with each other. The question is whether or not they can co-exist in a society. 

I believe they can. I'm a theist and a physics major. I have no problem being both a religious person and scientist.

(June 8, 2017 at 4:09 pm)Aliza Wrote: But the question isn't whether or not science and religion are the same thing or whether they agree or disagree with each other. The question is whether or not they can co-exist in a society. 

To which I answer no, if co-existing has some requirement of maintaining the integrity of both in any sense of the current religious field.

Quote:I believe they can. I'm a theist and a physics major. I have no problem being both a religious person and scientist.

To which I concede that they -do-..just that one or the other, inevitably and in every case........loses it's integrity.  It ha to, because the religions we have, today, make falsifiable and falsified claims.  Some better religion, some new religion..could avoid that.  Maybe.  Though I doubt that it would be worth much, sionce it would be avoiding any potential conflict  between itself and reality by framing itself -as- such...and in so doing, remove any claim of concordance -with- reality.

You claim to be a person in whom the two co-exist...but we saw what that looked like in the last person who made a strangley similar claim...didn't we? Science went right under the bus...immediately, when it so much as rubbed up against some associated religion's claims that the defender in question didn't even believe in himself. Breathtaking.

What do you think? Can a person simultaneously accept transubstantiation -and- "lolno still a cracker"? Do you think that you don't have a cracker.....? I'm genuinely intrigued. You belong to a non magical belief-set that has no contradictions in faith, with science? Or do you simply mean to say, above, that those bits of magic and contradiction don't weigh heavily on you, where they exist by faith?

(June 8, 2017 at 4:38 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(June 8, 2017 at 4:09 pm)Aliza Wrote: But the question isn't whether or not science and religion are the same thing or whether they agree or disagree with each other. The question is whether or not they can co-exist in a society. 

To which I answer no, if co-existing has some requirement of maintaining the integrity of both in any sense of the current religious field.

Quote:I believe they can. I'm a theist and a physics major. I have no problem being both a religious person and scientist.

To which I concede that they -do-..just that one or the other, inevitably and in every case........loses it's integrity.  It ha to, because the religions we have, today, make falsifiable and falsified claims.  Some better religion, some new religion..could avoid that.  Maybe.  Though I doubt that it would be worth much, sionce it would be avoiding any potential conflict  between itself and reality by framing itself -as- such...and in so doing, remove any claim of concordance -with- reality.

You claim to be a person in whom the two co-exist...but we saw what that looked like in the last person who made a strangley similar claim...didn't we?  Science went right under the bus...immediately, when it so much as rubbed up against some associated religion's claims that the defender in question didn't even believe in himself.  Breathtaking.

What do you think?  Can a person simultaneously accept transubstantiation -and- "lolno still a cracker"?  Do you think that you don't have a cracker.....?  I'm genuinely intrigued.  You belong to a non magical belief-set that has no contradictions in faith, with science?  Or do you simply mean to say, above, that those bits of magic and contradiction don't weigh heavily on you, where they exist by faith?

My grade point average would suggest that I'm capable of separating my religious beliefs from my science. 

(I had to Google "transubstantiation.")

Judaism doesn't oppose science and science doesn't oppose Judaism. That's the position Jews take, so studying science presents no theological problem that I have to work around. When we perceive a conflict between science and religion, we can simply reevaluate. We're allowed to do that because we're Jews, not Christians. We don't play by the same set of rules that they play by. -But even if I was a member of a literalist religion, I could still be a scientist because I could still choose to compartmentalize my two worlds. I've yet to write "G-d did it," in the answer field of an exam, and there are people of other religions that I study with, and I've never known them to write that answer down either.

In fact, religion never even comes up in conversation in my science world, even though I know there are Christians, Muslims and Hindus in my classes.

(June 8, 2017 at 5:21 pm)Aliza Wrote: My grade point average would suggest that I'm capable of separating my religious beliefs from my science. 

It really wouldn't....and couldn't?  This honestly isn;t a dig on your intelligence, it's just that being smart or doing well at school doesn't do anything to prevent you from having dissonant views.  Does it help any of those other religious people, who are demonstrably wrong, with their mistaken religious views?  No, no it does not.  

Quote:(I had to Google "transubstantiation.")

Judaism doesn't oppose science and science doesn't oppose Judaism. That's the position Jews take, so studying science presents no theological problem that I have to work around. When we perceive a conflict between science and religion, we can simply reevaluate. We're allowed to do that because we're Jews, not Christians. We don't play by the same set of rules that they play by. -But even if I was a member of a literalist religion, I could still be a scientist because I could still choose to compartmentalize my two worlds. I've yet to write "G-d did it," in the answer field of an exam, and there are people of other religions that I study with, and I've never known them to write that answer down either.

In fact, religion never even comes up in conversation in my science world, even though I know there are Christians, Muslims and Hindus in my classes.

OFC judaism is at odds with science.............................it;s pretty much the main actor in being at odds with science.....? I'll be honest, I expected something more exotic.......

Is judaism -not- the religion founded upon the fictional narrative that christians call the OT? Expanded, to include yet more fiction -not- explicitly contained within christendom....omitting the newish partys/...of the testament, which are decidedly christian and decidedly other-than-jewish?

(@ googling transub - didn't learn a thing, did you....... it's fucking gibberish, eh...lol. They may as well have said nothing - would have worked out better.)

(June 8, 2017 at 1:27 pm)Aliza Wrote:

(June 8, 2017 at 1:17 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Religion DOES contradict science, religion requires magic.

I don't see it that way, but we can agree to disagree on the matter.

Some "being" whistled up the Universe and you don't think magic was required? And I don't agree to agree with your point by not disagreeing. Don't volunteer my position.