Well thanks for tolerating me!

I am curious as to why you would want illegal immigrants allowed into the US, or allow them to stay.

I get compassion, these people have a better life in the US by far.
Is that the only reason?

However, there are many who use government services and do not pay taxes.
also no one has any idea about health concerns. With a normal immigration process immunization shots are required.
(I travel overseas for work and the same is required of me)
It is also common for illegal immigrants to be exploited by US companies, they often are paid less than legal immigrants or Americans for the same labor.
Employers do not have to pay workers comp for labor that is off the books, nor are they paying any health insurance (even if it is offered to other employees)
Granted this is probably a lot better than what they could get at home, but not up to our standards.
I would think you would be against this type of exploitation. (if they came here legally, or if the law was changed this could not happen)

There are illegal immigrants who do pay federal and state taxes. I think these people should be allowed to legally live in the US and there should be an available path to citizenship.


But until the law changes, I think it should be enforced.

I do not see the problem with a secure boarder, and enforced immigration law.
What other countries have open immigration?
Where can I move my family, use social services and pay no taxes?

I certainly know that you do not wish immigration law to be enforced, but is that only for those currently in the US?
Or would you rather see us have an open border policy?

Like i said not trying to change your mind, I am legitimately curious as to why.

I briefly spelled out my concerns with the matter, I would like to know yours.

(June 22, 2017 at 9:31 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: Well thanks for tolerating me!

I am curious as to why you would want illegal immigrants allowed into the US, or allow them to stay.

Other than our economy depending on their labor and our government and social services their taxes, and having my life palpably improved by their presence, in this land of the mother of exiles.......I can't think of any reason at all.  

Quote:I get compassion, these people have a better life in the US by far.
Is that the only reason?

OFC not, I'm american, I know how to muzzle my compassion and pull the trigger...but I do think compassion ought to get us farther on this issue than it has.

Quote:However, there are many who use government services and do not pay taxes.

Yes, there are many americans that do that.  Play with the theme of social parasitism at your own peril..it's not only factually wrong, it's a warning bell.

Quote:also no one has any idea about health concerns. With a normal immigration process immunization shots are required.
(I travel overseas for work and the same is required of me)

Which they already have, insomuch as they're checked, since our illegal immigrants come in legally and overstay their visas.

Play with the idea of a diseased mass of undesireables at your own leasure.  Again, wrong, and again..a warning bell.

Quote:It is also common for illegal immigrants to be exploited by US companies, they often are paid less than legal immigrants or Americans for the same labor.

Sure is, and it's easy to do, since we made them second class shadow persons.  We should probably do something about that, since we pretend to afford all persons in the us with equal protection under law.

Quote:Employers do not have to pay workers comp for labor that is off the books, nor are they paying any health insurance (even if it is offered to other employees)
Granted this is probably a lot better than what they could get at home, but not up to our standards.
I would think you would be against this type of exploitation. (if they came here legally, or if the law was changed this could not happen)

Payroll taxes. Even the exploiters like to try and avoid an audit by paying taxes.

Quote:There are illegal immigrants who do pay federal and state taxes.  I think these people should be allowed to legally live in the US and there should be an available path to citizenship.

Don't forget sale taxes, they all pay sale taxes. Too bad, the fuhrers gonna put em in camps and deport em.  In any case, this is a convenient way of saying "poor people out" - not exactly in keeping with the american ideal..eh?

Quote:But until the law changes, I think it should be enforced.

Again..we -were- changing those laws, and law enforcement for the sake of law enforcement where there is no reason for law enforcement or the law as it is in the first place has to be the silliest thing I've ever heard.  Do you know how many blue laws we have on the books?  Should we be enforcing those too, or just the ones that say we get to kick out the browns?

Quote:I do not see the problem with a secure boarder, and enforced immigration law.
What other countries have open immigration?
Where can I move my family, use social services and pay no taxes?

I'm not aware of any place where you can do that, and we aren't such a country either, so?

Quote:I certainly know that you do not wish immigration law to be enforced, but is that only for those currently in the US?
Or would you rather see us have an open border policy?

Personally, an open border...but that's not going to be achievable in this country so long as we have so many fine upstanding not racists™ and for profit prison industry lobbyists making decisions and casting votes.  

Quote:Like i said not trying to change your mind, I am legitimately curious as to why.

I briefly spelled out my concerns with the matter, I would like to know yours.

I don't have any concerns with immigration.  I understand that it's a necessary part of our economy, pumps money into our coffers, and improves our very culture.  Immigration has made us very strong. Those immigrants increase our GDP and bring us more than we ever pay them back with the New Cruelty. They even provoide us with the next generation of taxpayers, sorely needed since we natives are below the replacement rate and all of our own social programs (which they don;t get..no matter what loon told you otherwise) are predicate on population growth to function and be funded. Really consider the choice they've made...to be here - under constant threat of losing everything they have -which is very little-, treated like shit by people like yourself who never stop coming up with fucked up reasons to snatch them out of bed in the middle of the night all fed to them by a billion dollar media machine that makes money off promoting misunderstanding and misery...but they go ahead and clean your damned toilet anyway..because they're not a bunch of jacked up assholes worrying about their precious.

I'll be honest with you...I consider every single illegal immigrant I know to be more american than any given anti-immigration american. They're here because they believe in the american dream,...even if we americans know better, and in spite of so many americans actively shitting on that dream. Most of us couldn't get into this country legally -or- illegally. You got 500k laying around..ready to cross a desert? Are you a doctor, a nuclear physicist? Ever seen the test they have to take? How about just surviving abject poverty long enough to win a visa lottery? True motherfuckin grit, imo. I'd take 1 of them over 20 redstate welfare queens bitching about how mexicans stole the jobs they never wanted and didn't do worth a shit anyway.

I have no desire to rule, nor do I have any desire to be ruled. What I prefer is informed cooperation to elevate the life experience of everyone involved. As soon as you start telling me how to live "for my own good" you become a real threat to my liberty.

you are talking about allowing a permanent underclass
A lot of illegals die just getting here.
When they do get here they are often exploited by unscrupulous employers

Employers who hire illegals, are competing at an unfair advantage and that artificially keeps profits and wages low.  Ask any legitimate roofing contractor what they think about illegal immigration, that industry has been all but gutted buy exploiting companies who pay immigrants far below market wage for their labor.  Illegals are paid very close to the same take home as regular labor, but the employer saves on not having to match SS, and med, and they are not paying withholding taxes on the illegals.  They are paid in cash, under the table.

The only reason this continues is that immigration law has not been enforced.

If illegal immigration were drastically slowed down, and the illegals deported we would see a labor shortage.  A labor shortage leads to decreased profits that leads to a lobby getting a law passed to allow immigrant labor into the US in some sort of a legal manner.

In the end we would still end up with large amounts of immigrant labor but they would not be exploited.

This happens when the law is followed, not when we exploit them.

Conservatives, as always, out of their love for corporations and wall street go about the whole illegal immigration issue backwards. They want to deport and build a wall--expensive measures that they gladly advocate for while crying about government waste. Meanwhile they're perfectly okay with these companies exploiting these immigrants. It's the immigrants fault! So obviously we should deport them instead of punishing businesses that hire them.

(June 23, 2017 at 10:52 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: you are talking about allowing a permanent underclass

Who is...the only person who -could- be talking about that is a person who insists that laws be maintained such as to create one....and that, my friend...would not be me or anyone against our current immigration policies.

Temet Nosce.

Quote: 
A lot of illegals die just getting here.
When they do get here they are often exploited by unscrupulous employers

They wouldn't have to if they could just, you know, drive their car or take a bus.  They couldn't -be- exploited in such a way if we actually enforced those laws we have that are good and dencet and useful laws...rather than the migrant blue law set.  How about we take every dollar for a wall and for ice, and prosecute the shit out of exploitative business?  Hey, maybe then, some useless taker of an american might be able to get a job back when no one will risk hiring an illegal for sub-minimum wages?

Quote:Employers who hire illegals, are competing at an unfair advantage and that artificially keeps profits and wages low.  Ask any legitimate roofing contractor what they think about illegal immigration, that industry has been all but gutted buy exploiting companies who pay immigrants far below market wage for their labor.  Illegals are paid very close to the same take home as regular labor, but the employer saves on not having to match SS, and med, and they are not paying withholding taxes on the illegals.  They are paid in cash, under the table.

They're your "criminals and rapists" then...huh, your bad hombres, your social parasites, your diseased masses.......not the mexicans, the people employing them in order to exploit them.  Maybe we can build a wall around their business?

Quote:The only reason this continues is that immigration law has not been enforced.

What a silly thing to say.  The immigration laws -created- the shadow class that exploiters depend on.  

Quote:If illegal immigration were drastically slowed down, and the illegals deported we would see a labor shortage.  A labor shortage leads to decreased profits that leads to a lobby getting a law passed to allow immigrant labor into the US in some sort of a legal manner.

Ojh, I see, if we kicked them all out like you and the fuhrer want...that would lead...in fantasy land...to a situation in which we graciously begged them to return?  Have you completely checked out of reality?

Quote:In the end we would still end up with large amounts of immigrant labor but they would not be exploited.

or...or...I know this sounds crazy..but we could cut out all the shitty middle manning cruelty you have in mind and just..you know, remove exploiters means of exploitation entirely, rather than removing the people they exploit?  

"Hey fellas, we have a rape epidemic in this country..let;s deport all the women!" - what could possibly go or be wrong with that.  

Quote:This happens when the law is followed, not when we exploit them.

.................................................

I have no great love for large corporations.  I use Wall Street as a tool to fund retirement and Investments (as does anyone with a 401k).  I am an advocate for small business, which represents the majority of corporations in the US.  There are the very engine that pushes our economy.

There are already laws in place to discourage people from hiring illegal labor and i agree they need to be way more harsh.

I have a few questions for you.

Who are the "useless taker of an American"?

How else do we " remove exploiters methods of exploitation"?

Why do you think we would have to beg people to work jobs in a legitimate setting?  

Also, I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth.
I am trying to have a legitimate, polite conversation.
You keep referring to immigrants in derogatory terms and then insinuate that this is my perception.

I am aware that Trump made comments like this, but I did not and have not.  I think I have been clear about how I feel about the man, a lessor of two evils.  

I seriously doubt that you are in lock step with everything president Obama did or said over the last 8 years, nor have I suggested you did.

(June 26, 2017 at 11:30 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: I have no great love for large corporations.  I use Wall Street as a tool to fund retirement and Investments (as does anyone with a 401k).  I am an advocate for small business, which represents the majority of corporations in the US.  There are the very engine that pushes our economy.

Okay.

Quote:There are already laws in place to discourage people from hiring illegal labor and i agree they need to be way more harsh.

Or maybe we could skip all that costly regulation that keeps people who want jobs from getting jobs....and just stop creating a shadow class of illegal immigrants?  

Quote:I have a few questions for you.

Who are the "useless taker of an American"?

The americans who, unlike the mexians you imagined to be, actually are social parasites using our social services and paying nothing in. 

Quote:How else do we " remove exploiters methods of exploitation"?

By getting rid of a legally enforced shadow class of exploitable labor.

Quote:Why do you think we would have to beg people to work jobs in a legitimate setting?  

-because of the way we've been treating them.., because of what we made perfectly cler lasty election cycle about ourselves, because of our rank hypocrisy and bullshit about equal protection of law, and the fact that our country will be a shithole if you get what you want.  People aren't going to forget that the american gestapo rounded up their fathers and kicked them out of the country, they;re not going to come to us hat in hand asking for shit jobs when we've finished tanking our economy as effectively as the migrant final solution will.  You;ll be in mexico, a dirty illegal, looking for work.  Not the other way round. I hope people wonder whether or not you're diseased. I hope they accuse you of being a taker. I hope they write laws against -you- when -you- are being exploited. I hope they imagine that, if they kick you right the fuck out..that will somehow lead to a situation where you just come back, you know, like a good little boy. All legal and stuff, not the criminal you are. It's my second choice, ofc...in that I hope you would stop saying and thinking these things about -them-.

Quote:Also, I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth.
I am trying to have a legitimate, polite conversation.
You keep referring to immigrants in derogatory terms and then insinuate that this is my perception.

A polite conversation, where I come from, doesn't include non factual and ethnically charged social parasitism narratives.  Let;s be honest with ourselves.  You just want -me- to be polite while you say shitty things.  Great if you can get it, but you won't get it from me.

Quote:I am aware that Trump made comments like this, but I did not and have not.  I think I have been clear about how I feel about the man, a lessor of two evils.  

...........uh huh.  So, you never said that they dont pay taxes and that they use our social programs without paying in, and we had to worry about a disease issue? These weren't some of your "reasons" for stricter border control? You never suggested that we punish the fucking -victim- of labor exploitation with deportation, in order to stop the perpetrators of labor exploitation?

Quote:I seriously doubt that you are in lock step with everything president Obama did or said over the last 8 years, nor have I suggested you did.

.....?

I just think no one should be allowed to be rich...

Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil