(June 26, 2017 at 12:10 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 10:35 am)SteveII Wrote: 1. Belief that you are being led by God is not the same as being lead by God. 
2. The NT was the last complete revelation from God (which includes saying that it is the last complete revelation from God until the end of time). It has everything in it to have judged the actions of burning witches as entirely contrary to the will of God. 
3. C.S. Lewis was explaining, not excusing. Failure to understand [2] does not create the problem you think it does.
4. The Holy Spirit does not control what people believe and certainly does not stop people from murder.

And the Holy Spirit apparently didn't control what was written in the bible. Exodus 22:18.

Again, how do you know that you are being led by god if belief is no guarantee that you are?

You are taking a command written to the Jewish people living under a theocracy thousands of years ago and trying to apply it to people that it was not directed toward not in the setting that it was written in. 

One way of knowing that you are NOT led by God is if the action is contrary to the teachings found in the NT. Can you think of any historical atrocity that would not have been avoided if that were followed?

(June 26, 2017 at 12:28 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 12:10 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: And the Holy Spirit apparently didn't control what was written in the bible. Exodus 22:18.

Again, how do you know that you are being led by god if belief is no guarantee that you are?

You are taking a command written to the Jewish people living under a theocracy thousands of years ago and trying to apply it to people that it was not directed toward not in the setting that it was written in. 

One way of knowing that you are NOT led by God is if the action is contrary to the teachings found in the NT. Can you think of any historical atrocity that would not have been avoided if that were followed?

Well, if we turned the other cheek at the battle of Hastings, we'd all be Muslim right now, so...

(June 26, 2017 at 12:14 pm)Astonished Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 12:09 pm)SteveII Wrote: 1. I hesitate to respond because I really don't really care for your version of a discussion, but I will give it a shot...
2. It's really hard to give you verse or two because it is the entire conclusion of the NT that it is the final revelation of God. After 2000 years of promising, God himself, in the person of Jesus, came to earth to pay our penalty in order to bridge the gap back to God so that we can have a relationship with him now and forever. Following the acceptance of the proffered gift, it is complete with instructions on how to conduct oneself. The next thing to expect is the second coming of Jesus. The exclusivity claims and exhaustive nature of the message is present in almost every chapter of the NT. 
3. If you want to argue about conclusions of Christian teachings, you have to start with correctly understanding what those teaching are. I don't really care if you believe them or not. NT Christianity could never be construed to burn witches...period.
4. One of the responsibilities of the Holy Spirit is to make sure God's message is conveyed clearly and unmistakably and therefore that is why the NT is complete in it's description of the human condition, remedy for that condition, and guidance on how to conduct ourselves. If one chooses not to read it, who's fault is that?

Wow, I thought you were just naive but you're actually completely full of shit. You're just another biblical ignoramus who doesn't want to admit to all the contradictions and unwisdom of the damn thing (not to mention Jeebus was supposed to come back in the lifetime of his followers...and Jeebus wasn't even able to fulfill all the prophecies he was supposed to...and wasn't named what the Messiah was supposed to be named...but those are just those little inconvenient truths you like to pretend don't exist.) How do you not realize this is what makes it so hard to take you seriously from the start? You make way too many assumptions and underestimate the knowledge of your opponents, so what do you expect?

Do you really think there are not answers to your petty little objections? Do you think because you have read some atheist blog with a list of supposed problems with Christianity that you know what you are talking about? Do you think that writing 'Jeebus' does anything other than show you lack character?

(June 26, 2017 at 12:39 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 12:14 pm)Astonished Wrote: Wow, I thought you were just naive but you're actually completely full of shit. You're just another biblical ignoramus who doesn't want to admit to all the contradictions and unwisdom of the damn thing (not to mention Jeebus was supposed to come back in the lifetime of his followers...and Jeebus wasn't even able to fulfill all the prophecies he was supposed to...and wasn't named what the Messiah was supposed to be named...but those are just those little inconvenient truths you like to pretend don't exist.) How do you not realize this is what makes it so hard to take you seriously from the start? You make way too many assumptions and underestimate the knowledge of your opponents, so what do you expect?

Do you really think there are not answers to your petty little objections? Do you think because you have read some atheist blog with a list of supposed problems with Christianity that you know what you are talking about? Do you think that writing 'Jeebus' does anything other than show you lack character?

Do you really think any answer any Xtian has ever provided, EVER, has not been thoroughly debunked? For fuck's sake, if even ONE of your horseshit arguments held water, we'd all be Xtians. And I call him Jeebus because you shouldn't idolize the person and any object of idolatry should be torn down. The identity of a speaker or writer is irrelevant. That you can't seem to separate the person from the ideas is just one of your many problems but religions seem to have a special affinity for doing that more than any other form of hero-worship.

And how dare you call them petty when your faith is responsible for more atrocities than history will ever know? Commit the No True Scotsman fallacy all you like, but because you're all rooted in an irrational way of looking at the world, and are too fucking cowardly to think for yourselves, you don't get to say you're any better than the suicide bomber in the Middle East. If you're the drunk driver who makes it home safe, you're not the moral superior to the one who runs someone over.

Something that doesn't exist can't do shit and nobody can lead you anywhere you don't choose to follow.

(June 26, 2017 at 12:09 pm)SteveII Wrote: 1. I hesitate to respond because I really don't really care for your version of a discussion, but I will give it a shot...
2. It's really hard to give you verse or two because it is the entire conclusion of the NT that it is the final revelation of God. After 2000 years of promising, God himself, in the person of Jesus, came to earth to pay our penalty in order to bridge the gap back to God so that we can have a relationship with him now and forever. Following the acceptance of the proffered gift, it is complete with instructions on how to conduct oneself. The next thing to expect is the second coming of Jesus. The exclusivity claims and exhaustive nature of the message is present in almost every chapter of the NT. 
3. If you want to argue about conclusions of Christian teachings, you have to start with correctly understanding what those teaching are. I don't really care if you believe them or not. NT Christianity could never be construed to burn witches...period.
4. One of the responsibilities of the Holy Spirit is to make sure God's message is conveyed clearly and unmistakably and therefore that is why the NT is complete in it's description of the human condition, remedy for that condition, and guidance on how to conduct ourselves. If one chooses not to read it, who's fault is that?

Nothing in the NT nullifies the killing of witches. In fact, Jesus says...

Matthew 5:18 Wrote:For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I'm not texting from an alternate universe, so apparently heaven and earth haven't passed yet. This thing about witches seems to be one of those little jots and tittles that some Christians wish would pass.

The message of the Holy Spirit is always true.  Individuals who perform evil in the name of the Holy Spirit are not following him.  Do some people commit evil in the name of God?  Sure.  People commit evil in the name of many things and may even think they're doing the right thing.  We should always check our desires against scripture.  In the case of burning witches, the bible doesn't condone it.  It may have been commanded to the old testament Israelites, but not to us.  God's covenant with Moses had it's purposes and his covenant with his followers after the cross has it's purposes.

(June 26, 2017 at 9:47 am)Rhondazvous Wrote: C. S. Lewis excuses the church for burning witches by saying that they truly believed in witches. He tells us that if we believed there were actually women who had sold their souls to Satan and were going around causing mischief, we would still be burning them, so we can’t judge those people by modern sentiments.

He forgets one little thing. The bible says…

”Exodus 22:18” Wrote:Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

That cold mean one of four things.
1. The Holy Spirit didn’t know there’s no such thing as witches when he moved the biblical writer to pen this passage.
2. The Holy Spirit knew but for his own purposes decided to allow his church to believe a lie for millennia.
3. Millennia of Christians misinterpreted this passage which doesn’t actually say there are witches.
4. Man wrote the bible and the Holy Spirit is as fanciful as witches.

Millions of women were sadistically murdered because of this passage. Misinterpretation? But those witch hunters believed they were being led by god. Do you believe god is leading you? Do you believe you have the correct interpretation of the bible? So did they, so how do you know that thousands of years from now the Holy Spirit might decide to show the future church that you were wrong but they should not judge you for your error since you truly believe something?

You want to believe that the Holy Spirit would never allow you to believe what isn’t so. He did it with witches and I’ve been told he is the same today, yesterday and forever.

It probably wasn't millions of women but tens of thousands; some parts of Europe (around 75%) never saw a witch burning.

C.S. Lewis was, obviously, influenced heavily by the Enlightenment!  Look, if there really is an eternal Hell and everyone who dies in mortal or original sin goes there, then burning heretics, witches, etc., was a good thing, if such was truly for the salvation of people's souls!  How could it not have been?!

(June 26, 2017 at 1:13 pm)Lek Wrote: The message of the Holy Spirit is always true.  . . . . . 

GA 6:2 Bear one another's burdens.

GA 6:5 Bear your own burden.



Indeed.