(June 28, 2017 at 5:58 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(June 28, 2017 at 3:51 pm)pocaracas Wrote: What is Truth?

But haven't you seen Beccs in the buff?

I can truthfully say that yes, I have.

(June 28, 2017 at 3:20 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: Hey guys. I'm trying to find truth. I feel like it's worth finding. I'm currently agnostic. All I really want right now is to hear people legitimately defend their position. I'm pretty fed up with worldviews in general. I've got a few questions here that I'm just barely opening up. I'm not trying to be terribly profound; this is my first query post here and I just want to get some ideas flowing around that I can look into.

I've noticed that a lot of atheists pride themselves on not being "duped" or of not "living in a fantasy world," presumably referring to theism, deism, pantheism, or anything that accepts a supernatural element to the world of any sort. I'm just wondering, where in an atheistic worldview is there any impetus for this search for truth? From an atheistic point of view, truth has no intrinsic value (if I'm wrong here, I'd love to hear an argument for an intrinsic value of truth from an atheistic perspective), so in an isolated world, there's no reason to search for it apart from whim, and your search for truth on a whim would hardly be a reason to criticize someone else for arriving at a conclusion you deem false. An atheist'd have to go Nietzsche's direction along with the other postmodern philosophers and say that truth has no worth and that it doesn't matter whether we believe this or that—the thing that makes something worth believing is simply whether or not we believe it. I've also heard this facet of the issue argued further as "I'm concerned that wide swaths of humanity are duping themselves," but I fail to see from an atheistic perspective why there's any reason not to dupe yourself along with 'em or why you should care if others do, from a logical standpoint.

There doesn't seem to be much room for sharing anything of value with you in your question as asked, so far. "A lot of atheists say .." followed up by a request/dare that we defend our "search for the truth" based on "intrinsic values only". Sure you don't want to hear our answers phrased as a question and in Haiku form as well? Not asking for much right out of the gate, are you? And what have you put out there about you? Good luck finding a sucker taker.

(June 28, 2017 at 3:20 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: Another clear aspect of this issue, more related to this last point than to the intrinsic-value-of-truth part of the question, is the social problems associated with religion—i.e., the public practice of it. Granted, a good portion of Christians, Muslims, and many other religions cause harm in the world, but I would argue that, certainly in the former case and I hear in the latter case as well (although I'm not well-versed in Islam), those who cause harm to other people directly through their religion aren't living as their religion demands. In other words, the social issues in the world arising from religion seem to rise from an imperfect practice of religion, not the religion itself. (Once more, if you have an argument to the contrary, I'd love to talk about it.) It's the classic cliché: "I have nothing against Christianity. Christians, on the other hand...." Regardless, this is a different issue from what I'm talking about and springs from the first, so please don't begin a conversation about not liking religion because the religious infringe on your postmodern right to believing whatever you want. If that's the only reason you care, please just move on to the next topic. I'll ask about that later. What I'm concerned with here is why atheists care so much about finding the truth about the world from a philosophical perspective.


- Caleb

At least you got the insufferable part right. Too bad that isn't enough to make you worth the trouble.

(June 28, 2017 at 5:55 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: There's not^The original question was why "not being duped" is important.

That's just who we are as humans. Please note that this is not arbitrary. Why we are that way, that is a different question.

(June 28, 2017 at 6:01 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: Kirkawhat and Dessiewho: Two famous philosophers who are highly respected in the philosophy realm.

Could you explain what you mean by "it's not the same leap of belief, not at all"? What makes you believe in empiricism? I'm really asking. Do you have a rational explanation? I wish I could communicate my sincerity in this question through text. I'm not trying to be rhetorical, I really want to know. I want to engage intelligently with other people who are willing to defend their beliefs, whether that be theism, atheism, pantheism, postmodernism, or whatever

Also, I don't quite understand "I starting to back away." Are you worried that I'm a theist and that I'll mess up the atheist forums? Because if that's the case, that saddens me. I just want to find the truth. I've left countless Christian circles because everyone thinks I'm atheist. I've offended countless people who think I shouldn't be asking the questions I do because they're too set in their dogma to consider actually finding truth. I think. I think about things people set in their beliefs consider blasphemy. And I try to find truth. There's my worldview. If you have a problem with that, back away. On the other hand, if you want to start arguing against atheism I can pick up that mantle and argue the sh*t out of theism. Would that prove my desire to honestly just find what's real?

I'll give those guys as much respect as I believe they deserve. I don't care much for philosophy. 

I do believe in empiricism, but not exclusively. Some beliefs can't be subjected to science. One rational explanation would be reproducibility/testability. 

I can discuss my beliefs but I don't necessarily have to defend them. 

Backing away, that has nothing to do with beliefs. It has to do with what/how I perceive as your motivations and attitude. Telling me what I believe or should believe ain't sitting to well. I don't care what or where you have or have not been or done. 

Sounds like you state that you're trying to find "your truth, as you see it", make a statement then pile rationalizations and justifications in an attempt to get me to accept them. That may and may not work depending on the subject. 

IMO, you're starting to come across as an uppity know it all who thinks he has the only or best answer. Guess what, you might, but only for you.

(June 28, 2017 at 3:20 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: Hey guys. I'm trying to find truth. I feel like it's worth finding. I'm currently agnostic. All I really want right now is to hear people legitimately defend their position. I'm pretty fed up with worldviews in general. I've got a few questions here that I'm just barely opening up. I'm not trying to be terribly profound; this is my first query post here and I just want to get some ideas flowing around that I can look into.

I've noticed that a lot of atheists pride themselves on not being "duped" or of not "living in a fantasy world," presumably referring to theism, deism, pantheism, or anything that accepts a supernatural element to the world of any sort. I'm just wondering, where in an atheistic worldview is there any impetus for this search for truth? From an atheistic point of view, truth has no intrinsic value (if I'm wrong here, I'd love to hear an argument for an intrinsic value of truth from an atheistic perspective), so in an isolated world, there's no reason to search for it apart from whim, and your search for truth on a whim would hardly be a reason to criticize someone else for arriving at a conclusion you deem false. An atheist'd have to go Nietzsche's direction along with the other postmodern philosophers and say that truth has no worth and that it doesn't matter whether we believe this or that—the thing that makes something worth believing is simply whether or not we believe it. I've also heard this facet of the issue argued further as "I'm concerned that wide swaths of humanity are duping themselves," but I fail to see from an atheistic perspective why there's any reason not to dupe yourself along with 'em or why you should care if others do, from a logical standpoint.

Another clear aspect of this issue, more related to this last point than to the intrinsic-value-of-truth part of the question, is the social problems associated with religion—i.e., the public practice of it. Granted, a good portion of Christians, Muslims, and many other religions cause harm in the world, but I would argue that, certainly in the former case and I hear in the latter case as well (although I'm not well-versed in Islam), those who cause harm to other people directly through their religion aren't living as their religion demands. In other words, the social issues in the world arising from religion seem to rise from an imperfect practice of religion, not the religion itself. (Once more, if you have an argument to the contrary, I'd love to talk about it.) It's the classic cliché: "I have nothing against Christianity. Christians, on the other hand...." Regardless, this is a different issue from what I'm talking about and springs from the first, so please don't begin a conversation about not liking religion because the religious infringe on your postmodern right to believing whatever you want. If that's the only reason you care, please just move on to the next topic. I'll ask about that later. What I'm concerned with here is why atheists care so much about finding the truth about the world from a philosophical perspective.


- Caleb

Under atheism, the brain is the product of cold and mindless natural processes and there is no mind driving them. How atheists can believe their brain is reliable for ascertaining truth while also believing the above is mind boggling. Often atheists respond to this charge by saying our brains are good at ascertaining truth because we wouldn't have survived if they weren't. That may sound like a good response at first, but it isn't. False beliefs can increase survivability. Evolution may give me the false belief that the boogeyman is inside every McDonald's Big Mac, causing me to stay away from Big Macs. This would save me from harming my health by eating Big Macs, increasing my survivability, but through the power of a false belief. This is a comedic example, but there are multitudes of other examples you could conjure up that are more serious. Even if evolution alone gave people true beliefs when it came to things like "don't go near that animal or it'll eat you," or "don't touch fire because it harms you," what about more abstract things like mathematics or philosophy? Does being good at math or metaphysics increase or decrease survivability? Probably not or probably by not much. So maybe our mind is good for basic things like "fire is hot" but it isn't good for complex ideas.

However, under something like Christianity, the brain is the product of an omniscient, omnipotent, and all-good immaterial mind. So the Christian has good reason to believe their brains are good at ascertaining truth.

(June 28, 2017 at 6:28 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: IMO, you're starting to come across as an uppity know it all who may not yet have reached the age of majority yet thinks he has the only or best answer. Guess what, you might, but only for you.

Just a suggestion (my bolded).

---

(June 28, 2017 at 6:31 pm)ManofYesterday Wrote:

(June 28, 2017 at 3:20 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: Hey guys. I'm trying to find truth. I feel like it's worth finding. I'm currently agnostic. All I really want right now is to hear people legitimately defend their position. I'm pretty fed up with worldviews in general. I've got a few questions here that I'm just barely opening up. I'm not trying to be terribly profound; this is my first query post here and I just want to get some ideas flowing around that I can look into.

I've noticed that a lot of atheists pride themselves on not being "duped" or of not "living in a fantasy world," presumably referring to theism, deism, pantheism, or anything that accepts a supernatural element to the world of any sort. I'm just wondering, where in an atheistic worldview is there any impetus for this search for truth? From an atheistic point of view, truth has no intrinsic value (if I'm wrong here, I'd love to hear an argument for an intrinsic value of truth from an atheistic perspective), so in an isolated world, there's no reason to search for it apart from whim, and your search for truth on a whim would hardly be a reason to criticize someone else for arriving at a conclusion you deem false. An atheist'd have to go Nietzsche's direction along with the other postmodern philosophers and say that truth has no worth and that it doesn't matter whether we believe this or that—the thing that makes something worth believing is simply whether or not we believe it. I've also heard this facet of the issue argued further as "I'm concerned that wide swaths of humanity are duping themselves," but I fail to see from an atheistic perspective why there's any reason not to dupe yourself along with 'em or why you should care if others do, from a logical standpoint.

Another clear aspect of this issue, more related to this last point than to the intrinsic-value-of-truth part of the question, is the social problems associated with religion—i.e., the public practice of it. Granted, a good portion of Christians, Muslims, and many other religions cause harm in the world, but I would argue that, certainly in the former case and I hear in the latter case as well (although I'm not well-versed in Islam), those who cause harm to other people directly through their religion aren't living as their religion demands. In other words, the social issues in the world arising from religion seem to rise from an imperfect practice of religion, not the religion itself. (Once more, if you have an argument to the contrary, I'd love to talk about it.) It's the classic cliché: "I have nothing against Christianity. Christians, on the other hand...." Regardless, this is a different issue from what I'm talking about and springs from the first, so please don't begin a conversation about not liking religion because the religious infringe on your postmodern right to believing whatever you want. If that's the only reason you care, please just move on to the next topic. I'll ask about that later. What I'm concerned with here is why atheists care so much about finding the truth about the world from a philosophical perspective.


- Caleb

Under atheism, the brain is the product of cold and mindless natural processes and there is no mind driving them. How atheists can believe their brain is reliable for ascertaining truth while also believing the above is mind boggling. Often atheists respond to this charge by saying our brains are good at ascertaining truth because we wouldn't have survived if they weren't. That may sound like a good response at first, but it isn't. False beliefs can increase survivability. Evolution may give me the false belief that the boogeyman is inside every McDonald's Big Mac, causing me to stay away from Big Macs. This would save me from harming my health by eating Big Macs, increasing my survivability, but through the power of a false belief. This is a comedic example, but there are multitudes of other examples you could conjure up that are more serious. Even if evolution alone gave people true beliefs when it came to things like "don't go near that animal or it'll eat you," or "don't touch fire because it harms you," what about more abstract things like mathematics or philosophy? Does being good at math or metaphysics increase or decrease survivability? Probably not or probably by not much. So maybe our mind is good for basic things like "fire is hot" but it isn't good for complex ideas.

However, under something like Christianity, the brain is the product of an omniscient, omnipotent, and all-good immaterial mind. So the Christian has good reason to believe their brains are good at ascertaining truth.

Okay, now there is a contender for the title of "most insufferable noob".  Have at it.

(June 28, 2017 at 6:34 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(June 28, 2017 at 6:28 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: IMO, you're starting to come across as an uppity know it all who [color=#ff3333]may not yet have reached the age of majority yet[/color ]thinks he has the only or best answer. Guess what, you might, but only for you.

Just a suggestion.

Wut's this color crap???  hehehe

(June 28, 2017 at 6:31 pm)ManofYesterday Wrote: However, under something like Christianity, the brain is the product of an omniscient, omnipotent, and all-good immaterial mind. So the Christian has good reason to believe their brains are good at ascertaining truth.

That should read "the brain is *claimed* to be the product of..."

That is not a good reason automatically, it merely would be a good reason if the premise were true, which is begging the question. Nothing can be concluded from this statement about Christianity.

(June 28, 2017 at 6:37 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(June 28, 2017 at 6:34 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Just a suggestion.

Wut's this color crap???  hehehe

Too technical for me to figure out what with my cold dead atheist brain and all.  I switched it to bold and added a full confession regarding the tampering with your wording .. just to be safe.

Quote:Hey guys. I'm trying to find truth.

Stay out of Washington.