(June 27, 2017 at 11:46 am)SteveII Wrote: No, you have to distinguish between what you would like to see and what really is happening. There are more and more Christians in the world every year and atheism remains stagnant. Pew projects 750,000,000 more Christians (not even counting other religions) by 2050 and just 30,000,000 more atheists. That's 25:1. 

Come on Jehanne--you need to do better getting your compelling message out there! You're slacking!

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/relig...2010-2050/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...opulation/

There may be more, but are they the right kind of christian?

(June 29, 2017 at 11:53 am)Astonished Wrote:

(June 29, 2017 at 11:47 am)Jehanne Wrote: I was making a joke.

---

Some would say that you have no right to Heaven, the Beatific Vision, and because of the original sin of Adam & Eve (who never existed), you deserve eternal Hell, infants included.

Ignoring the fact that it's all actually Yahweh's fuck-up once again. Poor security in the garden that allowed the snake in, poor design in creating the snake and enabling it to speak, programming into the humans that fatal curiosity, putting the tree there in the first place, not putting anything around it to make them think twice about whether the effort of reaching it would be worth it, not surrounding it with more tempting things to distract them, expecting them to understand consequences without foreknowledge of good and evil...
I mean, if we were to take this to court as a liability suit, Yahweh would get his ass sued off every fucking time.

The Genesis myth only makes sense if you see it as Hebrew literature that was inherited from the ingenious peoples living in the Euphrates region at that time.  The early Jews believed that the Earth was flat and above it was this huge dome of water which is where rain came from, and that the Sun & Moon were celestial orbs that went around the earth with the stars being points of light that shown down and/or through from Heaven, which is where God was.

(June 29, 2017 at 4:04 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 27, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Lek Wrote: If you read the preceding and following verses you will discover that he is referring to people who already refuse to believe God.  It says that he will cause these people to believe and follow the man of lawlessness.  It's not that the Spirit is lying to them, but rather that God is withholding the Spirit from them so that they will naturally be deceived by the man of lawlessness.

I've read the surrounding verses, tyvm, and 2 Thess. 2:11-12 isn't out of context, as much as you'd like it to be.  Read it again.  'God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie' clearly implies that if God hadn't stepped in, then these people might have changed their minds and repented.  In other words, the HS is not always to be trusted.

Further, there's nothing in the verse about God withholding anything.  'Send' is an active verb.  God performed an action which deluded people.

Why do your lot spend so much energy telling people that the Bible doesn't mean what it says?

Boru

Yes. As with hardening Pharaoh's heart at the time of Moses, there have been occasions when God has intervened in the thoughts and actions of some who were already purposely unbelievers. His promise is to reveal himself to those who seek him with a true heart.

(June 29, 2017 at 12:19 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 29, 2017 at 4:04 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I've read the surrounding verses, tyvm, and 2 Thess. 2:11-12 isn't out of context, as much as you'd like it to be.  Read it again.  'God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie' clearly implies that if God hadn't stepped in, then these people might have changed their minds and repented.  In other words, the HS is not always to be trusted.

Further, there's nothing in the verse about God withholding anything.  'Send' is an active verb.  God performed an action which deluded people.

Why do your lot spend so much energy telling people that the Bible doesn't mean what it says?

Boru

Yes.  As with hardening Pharaoh's heart at the time of Moses, there have been occasions when God has intervened in the thoughts and actions of some who were already purposely unbelievers.  His promise is to reveal himself to those who seek him with a true heart.

No scholar believes that the Hebrews were ever enslaved in Egypt.  If you know of one, please post the citation here.

(June 29, 2017 at 9:43 am)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(June 28, 2017 at 7:40 pm)Lek Wrote: This is the way I see it.  God reveals himself to everyone.  Those who truly seek him will find him.  They may never have heard or read the bible or know his name, but they will know Jesus if they truly desire to know God.  I also don't believe that anyone will stay in hell "forever and ever and ever".

Seems like the second and third sentences are contradictory.  Is he revealed to everyone, or just those who look for him? And how can they desire what they know nothing of?

They are contradictory. The second sentence sentence should have read "God provides revealing evidence of himself to everyone".

(June 29, 2017 at 12:19 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 29, 2017 at 4:04 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I've read the surrounding verses, tyvm, and 2 Thess. 2:11-12 isn't out of context, as much as you'd like it to be.  Read it again.  'God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie' clearly implies that if God hadn't stepped in, then these people might have changed their minds and repented.  In other words, the HS is not always to be trusted.

Further, there's nothing in the verse about God withholding anything.  'Send' is an active verb.  God performed an action which deluded people.

Why do your lot spend so much energy telling people that the Bible doesn't mean what it says?

Boru

Yes. As with hardening Pharaoh's heart at the time of Moses, there have been occasions when God has intervened in the thoughts and actions of some who were already purposely unbelievers. His promise is to reveal himself to those who seek him with a true heart.

Ok, a few issues with that response. Firstly, you seem to be agreeing that God deludes people. Secondly, if someone deliberately disbelieves and God sends a delusion confirming that disbelief, isn't God abrogating the much-touted free will? Finally, how do you square the verse quoted above with the one in 1 Timothy where it says that God wants everyone to be saved?

Boru

(June 28, 2017 at 7:40 pm)Lek Wrote: They may never have heard or read the bible or know his name, but they will know Jesus if they truly desire to know God.  

If one has never heard of the bible or any part of it, Jesus as depicted in a book would never be part of their thoughts.    

Think about something you've never heard of before and tell me about it.

(June 28, 2017 at 11:24 am)vorlon13 Wrote: The rules on Amalekites will never change.  God used the word "FOREVER".  They aren't even eligible for Salvation via belief in Christ and His resurrection.  The Amalekites were THAT bad.

Wait just a durn moment, V.

What about 2 Samuel 7?  Where "god" assures "David"

Quote:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

Even if there was a "David" (doubtful) it would seem that "forever" only lasted a couple of centuries.  "God" is thus either a fucking liar or a fucking moron.  I'll let you choose.

But He really meant it when He said it about the Amalekites !!

(June 29, 2017 at 12:20 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(June 29, 2017 at 12:19 pm)Lek Wrote: Yes.  As with hardening Pharaoh's heart at the time of Moses, there have been occasions when God has intervened in the thoughts and actions of some who were already purposely unbelievers.  His promise is to reveal himself to those who seek him with a true heart.

No scholar believes that the Hebrews were ever enslaved in Egypt.  If you know of one, please post the citation here.

When discussing biblical events be sure to consider actual history.  Remember, Egypt was much larger than it is now.  The Egyptian Empire included the Levant area all the way to the Tigris River.  So even if the Hebrews were in the Levant and never actually in modern-day Egyptian territory they were in Egypt.