(July 7, 2017 at 10:09 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(July 7, 2017 at 9:11 am)KerimF Wrote: In other words, does, in general, an atheist (or a theist, actually) believe a new idea (discovery) if not approved worldwide first by certain scientists (other than the discoverers) who are privileged by the high class?

Science is classless.  Those who are most respected, or called great and therefore more easily believed, are so exactly because their ideas up to that point have stood up against all the best efforts of others.  Einstein was openly mocked.  He openly mocked others, and ended up being proven wrong.  It was not his name, or any authority he claimed, that mattered.  It was his ideas that mattered, and their ability to predict.

Yes, a lot of people DO believe blindly in science.  That's a problem, because when some rogue scientist says stupid shit, like vaccines lead to autism, a percentage of the population is almost guaranteed to believe them only because they are called scientists-- and kids end up dead.

But you have to understand-- people believing blindly in science are NOT scientists.  They are not members of the scientific community if they believe on faith alone.
Religion is the exact opposite.  Those who question their imams, rabbis or priests will be treated either condescendingly or with outright hostility.

Don't believe me?  Look how your ideas are turned over and over here.  They are sometimes mocked, sometimes considered, but they are heard and responded to.  Now, let one of us go to a religious site, and see how long our questions or arguments are tolerated.  I'll bet I can't go to Christian sites in particular, and type the word "evidence" more than 5 times before I'm banned.

To the credit of Islam, I'd say that Islamists DO take the philosophy of their religion seriously-- I suspect I might actually last a fair while at an Islamic site, even as a declared atheist.  But even then, I don't think anyone there will be able to give me a clear-cut process for the betterment of my knowledge of reality.

I guess, by now, you know that I am not a follower of any ruling system, claimed inspired by a god or not, even a sportive one

I am a neutral independent observer and I know that no sane mature person (including I) can change his deep nature of which he is made.
Based on this truth, I have no reason to argue or debate. At best, I may have friends the way they are; in case they are also as independent as I am.

You may have already noticed that I don't get angry or upset no matter how some others try their best to tease me.
I just hope always that my personal views won't hurt badly those who have no choice but to be faithful followers of a certain community, hence they are not supposed hearing things that oppose their Absolute.

Although I am not an atheist (I will explore this point on coming threads), I feel better talking to atheists than theists.
But I noticed that talking politics, with theists or atheists, is more risky than talking religions on these days.
The international political propaganda, thanks to the very advanced tools for editing audio/video materials, was able mastering most people's minds around the word to the point if one suggests analysing the end fruits of one important event, he would be treated as a blasphemer from the first minute, speaking politically.

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(July 7, 2017 at 1:29 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(July 5, 2017 at 11:08 am)KerimF Wrote: Please help me find a contradiction said by Jesus himself. Thank you.

I would if I were confident that we have a single word said by Yeshua bar Yosef.

I am talking about Jesus story (presented on Gospel) which could be real or not.

For example, I still believe that Pythagoras theorem (for rectangular triangle) is useful to me, even if I will be sure that Pythagoras is just a myth.
The same applies on Newton's laws in physics for example.

I mean we have on our hand a story (fiction or not) about a certain man who is known as Jesus (or else) and used addressing the masses (as our today's top politicians do) to tell them certain teachings. In this story, the character played by Jesus, since birth till his death, is far from being a typical one (even in any other story). 
Anyway, even if Jesus may not be real in history, his story do exist now. And it may give useful hints to some people about themselves and life (as other novels may do). The irony is that some people knew, since long, how to use Jesus story (among many others) to gain money and authority by offering Salvation in his name. But they had to also ignore the essence of his teaching about the unconditional love towards all others; otherwise, they will lose most, if not all, of their beloved followers/believers

Unconditional love?  Is that what he was thinking when he called a woman a literal bitch and trolled her about her sick daughter until she had groveled sufficiently?  Is that what was on his mind when he came to set brother against brother? Or when he told people in pun form to pluck out their own eye if it offended them? Is that was he was imagining, when he invented hell?

Boy, some people sure do show unconditional love in a funny way.
(imma go out on a limb here and guess that you're a bit of a selective reader?)

(July 7, 2017 at 2:39 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Unconditional love?  Is that what he was thinking when he called a woman a literal bitch and trolled her about her sick daughter until she had groveled sufficiently?  Is that what was on his mind when he came to set brother against brother?  Or when he told people in pun form to pluck out their own eye if it offended them?  Is that was he was imagining, when he invented hell?  

Boy, some people sure do show unconditional love in a funny way.
(imma go out on a limb here and guess that you're a bit of a selective reader?)

It seems I missed this part! Would you please tell me where I can get it? Thank you.

(July 7, 2017 at 1:54 pm)KerimF Wrote: In this story, the character played by Jesus, since birth till his death, is far from being a typical one (even in any other story).

10 Christ-like figures who predate Jesus

(July 7, 2017 at 2:48 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

(July 7, 2017 at 1:54 pm)KerimF Wrote: In this story, the character played by Jesus, since birth till his death, is far from being a typical one (even in any other story).

10 Christ-like figures who predate Jesus

I see. I missed it because this part isn't in Jesus story. Thank you.

(July 7, 2017 at 1:11 pm)KerimF Wrote:

(July 7, 2017 at 10:07 am)LostLocke Wrote: Depends.
What is the new idea? What hypothesis did they put forth? What observations were made? What data was collected? What experiments were run? What results did they get? Did they then repeat all this over and over? Did they build a working model from the data? Did they make further predictions? Is there concordance? Is there convergence?
Those are the things I will take into consideration when I choose whether or not to "believe" a scientist.

Do you mean that all people you had the chance to meet have enough time to check personally every story, said scientific, they didn't mind to accept and believe?
Truth be said, I focused on scientists to avoid flaming the comments more than they are supposed to be. Could you imagine what will happen if I will also talk about how millions of people believe in their trusted investigators, journalists, non-religious leaders, for a few.
For example, how many people in the world, as I, know that a modern tower cannot be scrolled down completely in less than a minute just by fire? About 15 years ago, even some professional/expert Americans were surprised how I, living too far from America, told them about things for which they had already solid proofs. But they had to keep the truth for themselves because they have families to take care of. I guess you know what I am talking about. In case I am wrong, the world will witness the new method that can destroy completely old towers just by fire if located properly inside the buildings instead of the old conventional complex and costly one. Anyway, thanks to this scientific story approved by all political systems in the world, without even one exception, the high class (around the world) was able investing trillions of dollars in Terrorism (that replaced Communism in less than 24 hours) against men on bottom (in millions; civilians and their various national forces).

In brief, the fake political stories, mainly if made in the name of science, have, on these days, strong effects on people's mind and their life much stronger than the religious ones have. For example, in reality, there are no conflicts among religions, in Middle East in the least; unless Judaism, Christianity and Islam have been joined to form one religion behind my back lately. I mean; one can enjoy this great union (solidarity) at the borders of Jordan (where Christian military officers are training the Islamist groups) and Israel (where many good Jews take care of their injured Islamist brothers). After all, an international noble cause joined these Christian, Jew and Islamist heroes. Could you guess it from where you live 

Kerim

Gish gallop. Some good points thrown in alongside some absolutely wretched illogic and nonsense in a rambling list.

Argumentum ad tl;dr

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(July 7, 2017 at 9:11 am)KerimF Wrote: In other words, does, in general, an atheist (or a theist, actually) believe a new idea (discovery) if not approved worldwide first by certain scientists (other than the discoverers) who are privileged by the high class?

Proposer: I have an interesting theory.
Anyone: Has it been subjected to peer review?
Proposer: No.
Everybody: Well fuck off then.

(July 7, 2017 at 2:46 pm)KerimF Wrote:

(July 7, 2017 at 2:39 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Unconditional love?  Is that what he was thinking when he called a woman a literal bitch and trolled her about her sick daughter until she had groveled sufficiently?  Is that what was on his mind when he came to set brother against brother?  Or when he told people in pun form to pluck out their own eye if it offended them?  Is that was he was imagining, when he invented hell?  

Boy, some people sure do show unconditional love in a funny way.
(imma go out on a limb here and guess that you're a bit of a selective reader?)

It seems I missed this part! Would you please tell me where I can get it? Thank you.

Nope, you can go read the story yourself before lecturing anyone else on what it says or what it's overriding message is.  That seems, to me, to be the bare minimum requirement.  Have fun.

(July 7, 2017 at 3:03 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(July 7, 2017 at 1:11 pm)KerimF Wrote: Do you mean that all people you had the chance to meet have enough time to check personally every story, said scientific, they didn't mind to accept and believe?
Truth be said, I focused on scientists to avoid flaming the comments more than they are supposed to be. Could you imagine what will happen if I will also talk about how millions of people believe in their trusted investigators, journalists, non-religious leaders, for a few.
For example, how many people in the world, as I, know that a modern tower cannot be scrolled down completely in less than a minute just by fire? About 15 years ago, even some professional/expert Americans were surprised how I, living too far from America, told them about things for which they had already solid proofs. But they had to keep the truth for themselves because they have families to take care of. I guess you know what I am talking about. In case I am wrong, the world will witness the new method that can destroy completely old towers just by fire if located properly inside the buildings instead of the old conventional complex and costly one. Anyway, thanks to this scientific story approved by all political systems in the world, without even one exception, the high class (around the world) was able investing trillions of dollars in Terrorism (that replaced Communism in less than 24 hours) against men on bottom (in millions; civilians and their various national forces).

In brief, the fake political stories, mainly if made in the name of science, have, on these days, strong effects on people's mind and their life much stronger than the religious ones have. For example, in reality, there are no conflicts among religions, in Middle East in the least; unless Judaism, Christianity and Islam have been joined to form one religion behind my back lately. I mean; one can enjoy this great union (solidarity) at the borders of Jordan (where Christian military officers are training the Islamist groups) and Israel (where many good Jews take care of their injured Islamist brothers). After all, an international noble cause joined these Christian, Jew and Islamist heroes. Could you guess it from where you live 

Kerim

Gish gallop. Some good points thrown in alongside some absolutely wretched illogic and nonsense in a rambling list.

Argumentum ad tl;dr

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(July 7, 2017 at 9:11 am)KerimF Wrote: In other words, does, in general, an atheist (or a theist, actually) believe a new idea (discovery) if not approved worldwide first by certain scientists (other than the discoverers) who are privileged by the high class?

Proposer: I have an interesting theory.
Anyone: Has it been subjected to peer review?
Proposer: No.
Everybody: Well fuck off then.

As usual, I have nothing to add other than thank you for another interesting reply full of info.

---

(July 7, 2017 at 3:16 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(July 7, 2017 at 2:46 pm)KerimF Wrote: It seems I missed this part! Would you please tell me where I can get it? Thank you.

Nope, you can go read the story yourself before lecturing anyone else on what it says or what it's overriding message is.  That seems, to me, to be the bare minimum requirement.  Have fun.

Please don't be shy. Even many Christians around the world (besides Muslims; since Islam is the Arabic version of Judaism) didn't mind creating or adopting other stories about Jesus that suit better their nature and, therefore, their priorities in life.
Naturally, you are also free to have your own stories about Jesus.

This is indeed one of the beauties of our creation. Each human being is free to choose the version of a story that makes him feel better, if not super. So despite the great differences among the human beings, they are all satisfied, if not happy, the way they are created.
Isn't it an incredible design

(July 7, 2017 at 1:11 pm)KerimF Wrote:

(July 7, 2017 at 10:07 am)LostLocke Wrote: Depends.
What is the new idea? What hypothesis did they put forth? What observations were made? What data was collected? What experiments were run? What results did they get? Did they then repeat all this over and over? Did they build a working model from the data? Did they make further predictions? Is there concordance? Is there convergence?
Those are the things I will take into consideration when I choose whether or not to "believe" a scientist.

Do you mean that all people you had the chance to meet have enough time to check personally every story, said scientific, they didn't mind to accept and believe?

I'm only telling you what I do.
What other people do or don't do is out of my control.

(July 7, 2017 at 5:33 pm)KerimF Wrote: Please don't be shy. Even many Christians around the world (besides Muslims; since Islam is the Arabic version of Judaism) didn't mind creating or adopting other stories about Jesus that suit better their nature and, therefore, their priorities in life.
Naturally, you are also free to have your own stories about Jesus.

This is indeed one of the beauties of our creation. Each human being is free to choose the version of a story that makes him feel better, if not super. So despite the great differences among the human beings, they are all satisfied, if not happy, the way they are created.
Isn't it an incredible design

It's not an issue of being shy..after years of dealing with bullshitters on these boards - I have no patience left for bullshit like yours.  I don't personally have any stories about jesus...the NT has that market on lock..so go, go read the fuckin thing, -then- come back and tell us about the overarching message in relation to all the shit that you, apparently, missed.

Or maybe take it up with any of our resident forum apologists who insist that neither god nor jesus, in fact, offer unconditional love? Have fun with all of that.