(July 13, 2017 at 1:19 pm)Khemikal Wrote: It might be more accurate to state that math that does not usefully and accurately describe some fundamental relationship of the universe is not good math.  It;s not so much that the universe "follows maths laws" but that maths laws were described by reference to the behavior of the universe.  More a language than a set of proscriptions.

Why does 1+1=2?  What is 2?  Define your variables.  

That is true.
What I meant to do is partially dispel the multiverse AND fine-tuning ideas (see below) by assuming that the laws of mathematics are absolute in the sense of information (bits) and conservation of energy. When put into practice, however, math becomes more of a tool we use and less of a model for reality.
I still stand by, however, what I said about self-equivalence and how it relates to math.

Going back to the multiverse and fine-tuning arguments, I argue that the universe in which we exist is the only one that CAN exist, so a more powerful form of determinism, not merely stating that things are deterministic, but that everything that exists is determined only self-equivalence; that different constants are at their current value because if they were some other value, it would violate some law of physics or math.
A rudimentary illustration of this principle is the classic "left or right" idea in determinism.
A person chooses left or right, and then someone says "look! they chose! that's free will!" but in actuality, the neurons fired in a predictable path to (in turn) cause the muscle to move and point to their choice. So to say "what if they chose the other option" is absurd because given the same starting conditions, for them to point to a direction contrary to the predictable firing of their neurons, they would be violating the way in which we know neurons behave, the chemistry that causes them to behave that way, and the physical properties, velocities, charges, and forces of the atoms which cause the chemistry of that behavior. They would be violating the absolute laws of the universe at some point or another.
But, in my idea of absolute determinism, the way we act is dependent on the laws of physics in another way, because the neurons which fire have been caused to fire, and so you get this big chain of events leading up to the choice, but no matter how far you push it back, you can never escape the event occurring, because everything acted in a deterministic manner according to physics leading up to that event. It is the only event that can occur at that location at that time. Probabilities are great for measuring uncertainty, but when looking at it in depth you find that it is very predictable, and thus probability (ie different 'possible' universes) is absurd. I therefore believe that the position and action of all matter/energy is actually determined by the way a universe-singularity (the big bang) naturally unfolds under expanding spacetime.
But then again, this is just my opinion, so don't take it to heart!

(July 12, 2017 at 4:09 pm)Dropship Wrote: Khemikal quote- the only place god can be seen is in the addled minds of god believers, same as always.
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But religionists will say "just look around at the wonders of nature like this beautiful creature which is too perfect  to have formed by blind evolution"..

Oh my Thor, you cannot be seriously using this as an argument? Looks don't last moron, she isn't going to look like that at the age of 80. And FYI MORON, male sperm can contain the HPV virus, that is the virus that leads to cancer. Nice "design". Cockroaches outnumber humans, are far faster breeders and have been around far longer than humans.

"Life has pretty things in it." Yea, puppies and kittens are cute, but tornados are not, kids getting cancer isn't, breast cancer isn't, black holes are really destructive, and meteors exist that are big enough to hit earth and kill us off just like the dinosaurs. 

Neither the good or bad in life are the product of a sky hero vs a ground villain. I don't need your fictional sky wizard to value the good or accept the bad. Our planet, solar system and the universe are far older than our species.

Alex K quote- What would it look like if something in the universe violated the laws of mathematics?..
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The famous 'Double Slit Experiment' certainly seems to violate the laws of the universe and scientists can't explain it, maybe it's one for Mulder and Scully?
Basically, when scientists place detectors to observe and monitor the photon stream, it inexplicably changes it's behaviour  as if it knows it's being watched, how spooky is that?..

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Brian37 quote- Yea, puppies and kittens are cute, but tornados are not, kids getting cancer isn't, breast cancer isn't, black holes are really destructive, and meteors exist that are big enough to hit earth and kill us off just like the dinosaurs. 
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The bible says it's the bad negative vibes given off by the human race that trigger illness and disasters etc, it sounds far-fetched I know, but if our "reality" is just an illusion, then perhaps bad vibes can disrupt that "reality".

Why must anything without a current logical explanation always default to a supernatural one?
Binary thought is a very common logical fallacy amongst theists

" It's OK to say we don't know yet, we're working on it. "


Theists won't say that because it'll be a lost opportunity for their second favourite fallacy. The God of the Gaps.

Ignoramus quote- Why must anything without a current logical explanation always default to a supernatural one?..
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Because the supernatural is  a science or "superscience" that we currently know nothing about, so to simply dismiss it as baloney is hardly a scientific approach.
Rather, we should study it and analyse it, and it just so happens the bible is a rich mother lode of such phenomena..

(July 14, 2017 at 7:37 am)Dropship Wrote: Alex K quote- What would it look like if something in the universe violated the laws of mathematics?..
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The famous 'Double Slit Experiment' certainly seems to violate the laws of the universe and scientists can't explain it, maybe it's one for Mulder and Scully?
Basically, when scientists place detectors to observe and monitor the photon stream, it inexplicably changes it's behaviour  as if it knows it's being watched, how spooky is that?..

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Brian37 quote- Yea, puppies and kittens are cute, but tornados are not, kids getting cancer isn't, breast cancer isn't, black holes are really destructive, and meteors exist that are big enough to hit earth and kill us off just like the dinosaurs. 
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The bible says it's the bad negative vibes given off by the human race that trigger illness and disasters etc, it sounds far-fetched I know, but if our "reality" is just an illusion, then perhaps bad vibes can disrupt that "reality".

You want me to buy a concept of a being who says "I can do whatever the fuck I want to do to you without explanation, even if you are an innocent kid"...... Nope sorry, I would not worship such a vile character. I am not anyone's property, much less kids. 

"Bad vibes"? No moron. 50 to 60 million humans DIE per year on average worldwide. Humans mostly die from old age, but we die in the womb. We die stillborn, we die in childhood from famine and disease. We die from accident, natural disaster, crime and war and disease. THAT IS WORLDWIDE. That is 500,000,000 in a decade and 1 billion deaths every 20 years.

I find it horrible logic and sick twisted logic to dare imply that a lifetime teacher like my mother who was nothing but giving and gave to society the value of education, to watch her die slowly over several weeks period in pain, for you to claim or imply somehow either she did something or I did something for her to deserve that kind of pain is DISGUSTING. 

But your logic sucks even worse when it comes to a kid, who dies from cancer, or famine living in a 3rd world country. Or when a kid gets kidnapped and raped and butchered. Nope, sorry, I wouldn't hire such a selective deadbeat to baby sit my kids if I had kids. 

There is no sky hero helping us. There is only you and a false desire reflecting your own fear of death and your own narcissism. If humans are to solve issues of avoiding danger only understanding life in natural scientific terms and with technology will reduce those things. Lucky for you such a vile character does not exist, unfortunately for you you have yet to figure out what we have.

Brian37 quote- I find it horrible logic and sick twisted logic to dare imply that a lifetime teacher like my mother who was nothing but giving and gave to society the value of education, to watch her die slowly over several weeks period in pain, for you to claim or imply somehow either she did something or I did something for her to deserve that kind of pain is DISGUSTING. 
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I never said that mate, you must have got me mixed up with somebody else, or maybe I didn't make myself clear, so let me try again-
Basically a billion muslims and other nonchristians churning out bad vibes is enough "spiritual pollution" to sink a battleship and cause illness, disease and disasters all over the world because it disrupts this fragile dream we call "reality".
PS- When my elderly mother was hit by hypothroidism the medics suggested it might be best to let her die peacefully, so I said "Yes, do what you think best", so they switched her off and she slipped into a coma and died within a few hours, but sadly not all medics are as enlightened as hers, and they insist on keeping patients alive.

(July 14, 2017 at 8:02 am)Dropship Wrote: Ignoramus quote- Why must anything without a current logical explanation always default to a supernatural one?..
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Because the supernatural is  a science or "superscience" that we currently know nothing about, so to simply dismiss it as baloney is hardly a scientific approach.
Rather, we should study it and analyse it, and it just so happens the bible is a rich mother lode of such phenomena..

We have and do...turns out it's bullshit.  Every single time.

(July 15, 2017 at 10:35 am)Dropship Wrote: Brian37 quote- I find it horrible logic and sick twisted logic to dare imply that a lifetime teacher like my mother who was nothing but giving and gave to society the value of education, to watch her die slowly over several weeks period in pain, for you to claim or imply somehow either she did something or I did something for her to deserve that kind of pain is DISGUSTING. 
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I never said that mate, you must have got me mixed up with somebody else, or maybe I didn't make myself clear, so let me try again-
Basically a billion muslims and other nonchristians churning out bad vibes is enough "spiritual pollution" to sink a battleship and cause illness, disease and disasters all over the world because it disrupts this fragile dream we call "reality".
PS- When my elderly mother was hit by hypothroidism the medics suggested it might be best to let her die peacefully, so I said "Yes, do what you think best", so they switched her off and she slipped into a coma and died within a few hours, but sadly not all medics are as enlightened as hers, and they insist on keeping patients alive.

No moron, not following your god, be it Muslims or Jews or Hindus or atheists, does not cause bad to happen. That is fucking disgusting to even claim any criticism or blasphemy of your personal belief has magic power to get revenge is nonsense and vile.

There are no "bad vibes" or "spiritual pollution", there are merely HUMANS who either chose to be compassionate or chose to be dicks to each other. Our species behavior is not rooted in old books of mythology, not yours not any. Our species behaviors, good or bad are in evolution.

My mom died too, she also chose not to do anything because she had already been through alot over the years and simply got tired of the fight. I was screaming in my head in the exam room at the hospital to myself wanting her to continue to try, but she chose not to and I had to let her make that decision. But for you to cheapen that to being caused by "bad vibes" or "spiritual pollution" or a sky wizard as if she or me or anyone were to blame for that is disgusting on top of making no sense. My mom got old, nothing more. It was not her fault, it was not my fault, it is an unfortunate part of reality. 

I am to blame for her death because I am not a Christian? BULLSHIT AND FUCK YOU. 
I am to blame for her death because of "bad vibes"? Again, BULLSHIT AND FUCK YOU.
I am to blame for her death because of "spiritual pollution?" And Thrice, BULLSHIT AND FUCK YOU.

All I really am seeing in this horrible argument is the same thing I get out of Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists too. Bad things happen because you don't follow the "correct" club.

Nonsense. My mom died because she got old and her body wore out. No magic or sky wizard to explain reality.

If you truly believe that there is a sky hero picking and choosing who suffers and who does not on a planet of  7 billion, I feel sorry for you. But you are not alone and other people of other religions have their own superstitions to attempt to explain why good or bad happen.

Brian37 quote- I am to blame for her death because I am not a Christian? BULLSHIT AND FUCK YOU. 
I am to blame for her death because of "bad vibes"? Again, BULLSHIT AND FUCK YOU.
I am to blame for her death because of "spiritual pollution?" And Thrice, BULLSHIT AND FUCK YOU.
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My oh my, you've just churned out enough spiritual pollution into the universe to trigger a supernova..