My take.........the Hebrews left Egypt during the aftermath of the Santorini volcanic explosion (happened around the time of the Exodus). The ten plagues of Egypt were not divine but due to the eruption.....red sea caused by sulpher, parting of sea caused by tsunami, days turned into nights caused by smoke filled skies, etc. Santorini (Thera) was possibly the largest eruption in recorded history and its effects were documented throughout the globe, including in China where crops failed and darkness fell. Despite Santorini being 650m north of Egypt (not far away), not a mention of it is in the Bible, apart from the ten plagues. So, the Bible author didn't know there was a volcano happening but thought it was just plagues sent from god. So the Hebrews leave (they could have been just a bunch of escaping slaves/convicts/you name it with no 'clan' heritage at all) and, led by Moses the murderer, walk towards a 'plume of smoke by day and a plume of fire by night'. I kid you not. So this thing starts to emit the same strange things as the plague God had done in Egypt so the Hebrews believe it must be THEIR God beckoning them.....'I'm over 'ere lads!'. Three cheers for the God who saved us from Egyption slavery!!!! Oh my volcano! They make it all the way to the foot of the 'mountain of God' and bow down to him despite the terrible living conditions. The conditions were so bad apparently a lot of the Hebrews wanted to return to slavery in Egypt! Of course, they'd never seen a volcano before because Egypt has no volcanos, hence the reason why some people believe Mount Sinai was not in the Sinai Peninsular but in Saudi Arabia, a hotbed for not only gay sex but volcanic eruptions, earthquakes and all sorts of freak weather.

The burning bush Moses came across might have been none other than a flaming gas escape hole positioned near to a bush but not close enough to burn it. Moses was the only person allowed into the 'holy of holies', which was a part of the tabernacle tent, and every time he came out his face was flushed bright red. Staring desperately at a flaming lava vent perhaps, waiting for divine inspiration? Near the base of the mountain of God, animals were sacrificed to Yahweh, the blood thirsty volcano. Sometimes virginal female war booty was also sacrificed to yahweh too. One time he got 32 in one go. What happened to them? Possibly positioned over a lava vent so they would be 'consumed' by the 'devouring fire'. And the penalty for disobedience? Death followed by an eternity in.....the lake of fire/the pit. It's all coming together nicely isn't it?

Add the fact that Moses wrote not only Exodus, Genesis, Leviticus, Numbers and Dueteronomy at the same time, it all seems to have mushroomed from this one act of paranoid superstition. He was obviously a psychopathic type and wrote the first books reterospectively to fit in with his grandiose scheme. It would be worth looking into the reason for the banning of the use of Yahwey's proper name because I smell a rat. All of a sudden they say writing or saying the name of their god is a crime punishable by death?? That might have been because the proper name meant 'explosion' or 'eruption', which was a bit of a give-away. Maybe long after the Hebrews left the mountain of god they worked out to their horror that it had been just a naturally occuring volcano and decided to ban the name to ensure no-one worked it out in the long run. Tracks covered.

I'll now post some Bible verses for your amusement......after the innitial shock, I found it side splittingly amusing....

Follow the yellow brick road...

Isaiah 30:27 See, the Name of the LORD comes from afar, with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 10:17 The Light of Israel will become a fire, their Holy One a flame; in a single day it will burn and consume his thorns and his briers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"

Isaiah 66:15 See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done--burn with no one to quench it.

Ezekiel 22:31 So I will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger, bringing down on their own heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign LORD."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.

Lamentations 4:11 The LORD has given full vent to his wrath; he has poured out his fierce anger. He kindled a fire in Zion that consumed her foundations.

Ezekiel 7:8 I am about to pour out my wrath on you and spend my anger against you; I will judge you according to your conduct and repay you for all your detestable practices.

Exodus 3:12 And God said, "I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain."

Isaiah 29:6 the LORD Almighty will come with thunder and earthquake and great noise, with windstorm and tempest and flames of a devouring fire.

Revelation 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Exodus 19:16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.

2 Samuel 22:10 He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet.

Psalm 104:3 and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters. He makes the clouds his chariot and rides on the wings of the wind.

Jeremiah 4:13 Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us! We are ruined!

The blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords: who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power eternal. Amen" (1 Timothy 6:16, R.V.). (dwelling in light unapproachable)

"For ask now of the days that are past ... whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is? ... Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials (R.V. margin), by signs, and by wonders ... according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?" (Deuteronomy 4:32-34). (speaking out of the midst of the fire)

Exodus 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain 9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. 12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. 13 there shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live. 16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, Rev. 4.5 and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 18 And mount Si'nai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: Deut. 4.11, 12 and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.



PSA 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

ISA 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:

Isaiah: 5:26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly.

Revelations: 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Exodus: 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

•Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire.

Matthew 13:42 Jesus Christ said the lost will finally be cast “into a furnace of fire.”

Matthew 3:12 John the Baptist said the lost will end up in “unquenchable fire.”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

1 Kings 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Genesis 15:17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. Leviticus 9:24And there came a fire out from before the LORD, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: which when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces. 1 Chronicles 21:26And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering. 2 Chronicles 7:1Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.

Hebrews 12:29 for our "God is a consuming fire."

Exodus 15:7 In the greatness of your majesty you threw down those who opposed you. You unleashed your burning anger; it consumed them like stubble.

Exodus 24:17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.

2 Samuel 22:9 Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it.

Psalm 97:3 Fire goes before him and consumes his foes on every side.

Jeremiah 25:37 The peaceful meadows will be laid waste because of the fierce anger of the LORD.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hebrews 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Hebrews 10:31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Daniel 7:9 "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Numbers 16:34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, "The earth is going to swallow us too!"

Numbers 16.35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.

Revelation 11:5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.

Leviticus 10:2 So fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.

Numbers 11:1 Now the people complained about their hardships in the hearing of the LORD, and when he heard them his anger was aroused. Then fire from the LORD burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp.

Numbers 26:10 The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them along with Korah, whose followers died when the fire devoured the 250 men. And they served as a warning sign.

Psalm 50:3 Our God comes and will not be silent; a fire devours before him, and around him a tempest rages.

What I like about your explanation is that it doesn't violate the laws of physics or call on the supernatural.

(July 29, 2011 at 5:51 pm)Darwinian Wrote: What I like about your explanation is that it doesn't violate the laws of physics or call on the supernatural.

It's just plain logical but can I get a Christian to so much as contemplate it? Nope. Dumb struck the lot of 'em.

Quote:My take.........the Hebrews left Egypt during the aftermath of the Santorini volcanic explosion

Except 200 years of excavations in Egypt has failed to turn up any evidence that they were ever in Egypt.


Period.

11 The LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.”

Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper.

1 Kings 19

See, you can make it say whatever you like.

(July 29, 2011 at 6:05 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:My take.........the Hebrews left Egypt during the aftermath of the Santorini volcanic explosion

Except 200 years of excavations in Egypt has failed to turn up any evidence that they were ever in Egypt.


Period.

The ten plagues of Egypt happening around the time of the Santorini volcanic eruption and being documented in the Bible is pretty good proof of them having been in Egypt around 1500 BC. As I said in my post, maybe the Hebrew people only became a clan when they fled Egypt, so there would be nothing 'Hebrew' to find in Egypt to prove they were ever there. Lack of physical evidence is not proof of non-existence. Maybe Moses created the ancestral past in Genesis so the motley crew that fled Egypt could feel, in time, they were special....so special they were chosen by god.

---

(July 29, 2011 at 6:06 pm)BloodyHeretic Wrote: 11 The LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.”

Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper.

1 Kings 19

See, you can make it say whatever you like.

Not sure what your point is. This verse is complete poetic licence. It doesn't reveal anything.

---

Some revealing verses...

Deuteronomy 9:21 (King James Version)

21And I took your sin, the calf which ye had made, and burnt it with fire, and stamped it, and ground it very small, even until it was as small as dust: and I cast the dust thereof into the brook that descended out of the mount.

'brook'? Lava river perhaps? The golden calf had been constructed because Moses took so long on the mountain getting the ten commandments. When he eventually came back down he found the Hebrews had constructed a golden calf to worship.....a pagan idol. This is a bit odd because Hebrews were meant to be monotheistic already but obviously not. Funnily enough, the Minoans of Crete (devasted in Santorini eruption) also worshipped bulls and made animal sacrifices using horn symbolism (tabernacle has horns on it). This info also points to the possibility the Hebrews were just a collection of refugees who only became monotheistic when Moses came up with the ten commandments and told everyone that god was in the volcano.

(July 29, 2011 at 5:51 pm)Darwinian Wrote: What I like about your explanation is that it doesn't violate the laws of physics or call on the supernatural.

It's still bonkers tho' right?

(July 29, 2011 at 6:42 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(July 29, 2011 at 5:51 pm)Darwinian Wrote: What I like about your explanation is that it doesn't violate the laws of physics or call on the supernatural.

It's still bonkers tho' right?

Indeed

But they didn't flee Egypt............The whole book, start to finish, is myth and prophecy.

It cannot be entirely mythical. The ten plagues of Egypt clearly occured due to the Santorini eruption. They experienced the aftermath of it. They must have been in Egypt to have experienced the fallout but to have not seen the volcano. Saying it's all myth is as bad as a Christian saying it's all the actual word of God. It's more complex than either or.