Gee.  I wonder where we got the idea that you are some sort of religious fanatic?  Maybe its one of those prophecies, huh?

(August 9, 2017 at 2:33 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Gee.  I wonder where we got the idea that you are some sort of religious fanatic?  Maybe its one of those prophecies, huh?

What does that have to do with anything I said? Being willing NOT to talk about God here makes me a religious fanatic? You and Brian seem to just enjoy saying things without any relevance to what others say. I don't get it.

(August 9, 2017 at 1:24 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote:

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(August 9, 2017 at 1:20 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Of all of the god fantasy delusions out there why do you believe in this one (bible/abrahamic)? Why do you need me/us to give you some measure of validity to your belief? What actual evidence do you have that might lend some credence to the belief. (please don't say the bible, that's not evidence)

I have zero confidence in your chemical engineer claim. Is this another fantasy?

Assuming you are asking why I believe in the Biblical God: Because such a presupposition logically provide an explanation for things like knowledge, logic, and morals whereas other positions do not (they are internally consistent).

Second question answer: I don't. One of the things I come here for is to see what kind of arguments others might provide against my position. So far...none have been forthcoming that show my presuppositions lead to illogical conclusions.

Third question answer: The internal logical consistency of the position as compared to other positions.

If you don't believe I have a Chemical Engineering degree... oh well. Similarly, I have zero confidence that you can explain how life can come from non-live via naturalistic organic chemistry mechanisms. Is this your fantasy?

There is no logic to your presupposition, only fantasy. The nice thing about fantasy is you get to make it conform to what ever you need. Good job!

Second: Tough to argue against a fantasy except to keep pointing out that it's only a fantasy. Still waiting for some proof but won't hold my breath.

Third: What logical consistency? 

I never said I have an explanation so no fantasy. I just said no one knows YET and also said it does not require a creator fantasy to make me feel comfortable. Apparently you need the fantasy.

(August 9, 2017 at 3:18 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 1:24 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote:

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Assuming you are asking why I believe in the Biblical God: Because such a presupposition logically provide an explanation for things like knowledge, logic, and morals whereas other positions do not (they are internally consistent).

Second question answer: I don't. One of the things I come here for is to see what kind of arguments others might provide against my position. So far...none have been forthcoming that show my presuppositions lead to illogical conclusions.

Third question answer: The internal logical consistency of the position as compared to other positions.

If you don't believe I have a Chemical Engineering degree... oh well. Similarly, I have zero confidence that you can explain how life can come from non-live via naturalistic organic chemistry mechanisms. Is this your fantasy?

There is no logic to your presupposition, only fantasy. The nice thing about fantasy is you get to make it conform to what ever you need. Good job!

Second: Tough to argue against a fantasy except to keep pointing out that it's only a fantasy. Still waiting for some proof but won't hold my breath.

Third: What logical consistency? 

I never said I have an explanation so no fantasy. I just said no one knows YET and also said it does not require a creator fantasy to make me feel comfortable. Apparently you need the fantasy.

Maybe you should bone up on what presuppositions are. Everyone has them, even if they don't recognize what they are. Presuppositions are taken for granted...the starting point to argue from.

(August 9, 2017 at 3:42 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote: Maybe you should bone up on what presuppositions are. Everyone has them, even if they don't recognize what they are. Presuppositions are taken for granted...the starting point to argue from.

Why should I take your fantasy for granted? It's a non starter for a discussion.

Let's try this, Superman is real, OK, go.

(August 9, 2017 at 3:46 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 3:42 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote: Maybe you should bone up on what presuppositions are. Everyone has them, even if they don't recognize what they are. Presuppositions are taken for granted...the starting point to argue from.

Why should I take your fantasy for granted? It's a non starter for a discussion.

Let's try this, Superman is real, OK, go.

Mr Brewer, sometimes I cannot stand some of your positions, but on this, I 100% agree, he might as well be arguing Superman or any other fictional character.

Theists never want to consider that when you have evidence it doesn't take apology to convince someone, you can literally take your claims into a neutral lab and then also have them independently tested and confirmed.

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(August 9, 2017 at 2:37 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 2:33 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Gee.  I wonder where we got the idea that you are some sort of religious fanatic?  Maybe its one of those prophecies, huh?

What does that have to do with anything I said? Being willing NOT to talk about God here makes me a religious fanatic? You and Brian seem to just enjoy saying things without any relevance to what others say. I don't get it.

You think you are our first rodeo? Because if you really think you have some earth shattering argument other Christians or even other theists of other labels haven't tried before, and that we have not run into those tactics before, you are a fool. I was born at night, just not last night.

Min is right though, if you really buy the doomsday end times prophecy you either unwittingly or willingly ignore that you buy a very dangerous narrative. FYI many Muslims can point to their claimed prophecies too and quote the Koran too.

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3...-of-quran/

I don't know about you, but quite frankly I am tired of all three religions of Abraham having far too many fans make claims about what daddy wants and are willing to kill over those claims. I don't think any of you understand to a great enough degree that there are more than just Christians and Muslims and Jews on this planet of 7 billion. 

AND,  what monotheism calls "prophecies" prior polytheism much older than the monotheism of Abraham, had their versions of "predictions" coming from the divine world too. In polytheism they would go through "oracles" or "seers" or "soothsayers". 

All nonsense to me, both in polytheism and monotheism. What does scare me is that their are people still today who believe this crap and have political power.

(August 9, 2017 at 3:46 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 3:42 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote: Maybe you should bone up on what presuppositions are. Everyone has them, even if they don't recognize what they are. Presuppositions are taken for granted...the starting point to argue from.

Why should I take your fantasy for granted? It's a non starter for a discussion.

Let's try this, Superman is real, OK, go.

Why don't you man up now and put forward what your presuppositions are? Or are you afraid as it might make you feel uncomfortable for someone else to evaluate your line of thinking? So instead...you put forth nonsense like "Superman is real, OK, go". How does one provide an explanation of where the laws of logic come from with Superman as your presupposition? Etc, Etc.  There you go. Now...why don't you look real deep into yourself and explain what yours really are?

You seem too content just to sit immersed with those who agree with you instead of trying to actually understand another point of view. You can say my presuppositions are a non-starter for you and never go through the mental exercise to determine if it is a logically consistent position to see where I am coming from. That is your prerogative. As for me, I like to see how others think as it helps me hone my own position.

(August 9, 2017 at 3:46 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 3:42 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote: Maybe you should bone up on what presuppositions are. Everyone has them, even if they don't recognize what they are. Presuppositions are taken for granted...the starting point to argue from.

Why should I take your fantasy for granted? It's a non starter for a discussion.

Let's try this, Superman is real, OK, go.

Superman is real?

THat's the most ridiculous thing I have read apart from Abrahamic claims.

Everyone knows Spiderman is real, though.

(August 9, 2017 at 4:18 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Theists never want to consider that when you have evidence it doesn't take apology to convince someone, you can literally take your claims into a neutral lab and then also have them independently tested and confirmed.

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(August 9, 2017 at 2:37 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote: What does that have to do with anything I said? Being willing NOT to talk about God here makes me a religious fanatic? You and Brian seem to just enjoy saying things without any relevance to what others say. I don't get it.

You think you are our first rodeo? Because if you really think you have some earth shattering argument other Christians or even other theists of other labels haven't tried before, and that we have not run into those tactics before, you are a fool. I was born at night, just not last night.

Min is right though, if you really buy the doomsday end times prophecy you either unwittingly or willingly ignore that you buy a very dangerous narrative. FYI many Muslims can point to their claimed prophecies too and quote the Koran too.

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3...-of-quran/

I don't know about you, but quite frankly I am tired of all three religions of Abraham having far too many fans make claims about what daddy wants and are willing to kill over those claims. I don't think any of you understand to a great enough degree that there are more than just Christians and Muslims and Jews on this planet of 7 billion. 

AND,  what monotheism calls "prophecies" prior polytheism much older than the monotheism of Abraham, had their versions of "predictions" coming from the divine world too. In polytheism they would go through "oracles" or "seers" or "soothsayers". 

All nonsense to me, both in polytheism and monotheism. What does scare me is that their are people still today who believe this crap and have political power.

To say that all claims can literally be taken into a neutral lab and tested is total nonsense. I assume you ascribe to the laws of logic. Both of us would then claim the law of non-contradiction is true. Can that claim be taken into a neutral lab to have it tested by science? Um...no. You claim you have morals without God. Can you take that claim into a neutral lab and have it tested by science? Um...no. Not all things are testable with science. If you think that science answers everything even from an atheistic point of view, I think you are really mistaken. Science cannot test abstract non-material ideas such as the laws of logic and morals.

You ascribe to me as holding to some doomsday end times prophecy.  Where does that come from? Aren't you generalizing now? You rightly criticize Godscreated for doing so with atheists and yet you do the same to Christians.

And, as for me, killing someone who disagrees with the Christian point of view is bad and I would stand next to you to fight against those who would do so.

But all of this aside...as I told Min...I am content to NOT talk about God here. I would rather talk about what you believe, what your presuppositions are, and where they lead. Why throw out what you really believe, instead of always trying to turn it around and discuss what you think about mine?

(August 9, 2017 at 5:27 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 4:18 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Theists never want to consider that when you have evidence it doesn't take apology to convince someone, you can literally take your claims into a neutral lab and then also have them independently tested and confirmed.

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You think you are our first rodeo? Because if you really think you have some earth shattering argument other Christians or even other theists of other labels haven't tried before, and that we have not run into those tactics before, you are a fool. I was born at night, just not last night.

Min is right though, if you really buy the doomsday end times prophecy you either unwittingly or willingly ignore that you buy a very dangerous narrative. FYI many Muslims can point to their claimed prophecies too and quote the Koran too.

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3...-of-quran/

I don't know about you, but quite frankly I am tired of all three religions of Abraham having far too many fans make claims about what daddy wants and are willing to kill over those claims. I don't think any of you understand to a great enough degree that there are more than just Christians and Muslims and Jews on this planet of 7 billion. 

AND,  what monotheism calls "prophecies" prior polytheism much older than the monotheism of Abraham, had their versions of "predictions" coming from the divine world too. In polytheism they would go through "oracles" or "seers" or "soothsayers". 

All nonsense to me, both in polytheism and monotheism. What does scare me is that their are people still today who believe this crap and have political power.

To say that all claims can literally be taken into a neutral lab and tested is total nonsense. I assume you ascribe to the laws of logic. Both of us would then claim the law of non-contradiction is true. Can that claim be taken into a neutral lab to have it tested by science? Um...no. You claim you have morals without God. Can you take that claim into a neutral lab and have it tested by science? Um...no. Not all things are testable with science. If you think that science answers everything even from an atheistic point of view, I think you are really mistaken. Science cannot test abstract non-material ideas such as the laws of logic and morals.

You ascribe to me as holding to some doomsday end times prophecy.  Where does that come from? Aren't you generalizing now? You rightly criticize Godscreated for doing so with atheists and yet you do the same to Christians.

And, as for me, killing someone who disagrees with the Christian point of view is bad and I would stand next to you to fight against those who would do so.

But all of this aside...as I told Min...I am content to NOT talk about God here. I would rather talk about what you believe, what your presuppositions are, and where they lead. Why throw out what you really believe, instead of always trying to turn it around and discuss what you think about mine?

No idiot, when it comes to pursuit of scientific fact YES any claim a scientist might make CAN BE independently tested and falsified. 

You are still stuck on the bullshit notion that all claims are equal until disproved. 

That is not the way any objective scientist thinks or should think.

If you are unwilling to hand your claims over to independent peers, sorry, all you have is a claim. 

You are not arguing objectively you are merely arguing from a position of apology. 

Now everywhere in your post I am quoting here, ask yourself, NOT ME, but YOURSELF, if you would buy your own argument if someone of a different religion and god claim were using the same argument? If the answer is no, sorry, you are not being neutral you are simply suffering from the same selection bias and sample rate error most humans fall for.

The reality is somewhere in your past someone sold you a story and you liked it and fell for it. I am being fair because most humans fall for some story. If pursuit of neutral fact worked the way you wish it did, then all 7 billion of us are all correct all at the same time. You know that is bullshit, so don't peddle that crap with me.