(August 23, 2017 at 4:07 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

Clueless Morgan Wrote:I'm not buying that.  Unless he could read minds and see that Dany was coming with three dragons then he wouldn't have known that she would show up to rescue the party with them.  I would think he saw the dragons when Dany showed up with them and thought "Hey, I'd like me one of those" and made it happen.

Bran can see the future, and he and the Night King are connected. I suspect that whatever Bran can do, the Night King can do.

Bringo.

(August 23, 2017 at 3:22 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Also, Viserion got a nasty blow to the underside. Those zombies don't heal... holes remain holes.... that will not be very good for aerodynamic purposes. Actually, fast air moving will only open that hole up more and more.

You're such a nerd

Answer to that problem: undead aerodynamics, i.e. magic

(Seriously, if you're going to have a problem with the aerodynamics of a dragon with a hole in its torso, you should also have big problems with animals that large being able to fly in the first place.  There are biological limitations to the size/weight of flying animals and those dragons definitely exceed those limits.)

(August 23, 2017 at 4:07 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Bran can see the future, and he and the Night King are connected. I suspect that whatever Bran can do, the Night King can do.

But they're not connected all the time though, are they?? Unless Bran was actively seeing something in the future while connected to the Night King, the Night King wouldn't necessarily be seeing what Bran can see, would he?  For example, has the Night King seen Ned and Lyanna in the tower right after she gave birth?  He wasn't there with Bran seeing it.

I think the other way around is important too.

If Bran becomes more powerful than the night king, then he can warg into the ice dragon, too.

(August 23, 2017 at 4:46 pm)Clueless Morgan Wrote:

(August 23, 2017 at 3:22 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Also, Viserion got a nasty blow to the underside. Those zombies don't heal... holes remain holes.... that will not be very good for aerodynamic purposes. Actually, fast air moving will only open that hole up more and more.

You're such a nerd

(August 23, 2017 at 4:46 pm)Clueless Morgan Wrote: Answer to that problem: undead aerodynamics, i.e. magic

(Seriously, if you're going to have a problem with the aerodynamics of a dragon with a hole in its torso, you should also have big problems with animals that large being able to fly in the first place.  There are biological limitations to the size/weight of flying animals and those dragons definitely exceed those limits.)

Hollow bones!
Thick skin, but hollow chicken bones!

They way they take off in the show is indeed a bit unnatural, though.... I'd expect them to need a bit more of a running start, considering how clumsy they look... and how powerful their legs are.

(August 23, 2017 at 4:48 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: I think the other way around is important too.

If Bran becomes more powerful than the night king, then he can warg into the ice dragon, too.

Then Bran could warg into the ice dragon?

Wouldn't that mean that right now, because (I assume) the Night King is more powerful, that he could warg into anything Bran has warged into? Which would mean the Night King could, in theory, have warged into Summer and killed Bran before Summer died?

I don't know the extent of their powers, and the extent of the Night King's powers. Thusfar, it seems that the White Walkers' powers are limited to the reanimated dead.

We haven't seen anything thusfar to suggest that Bran's powers are limited to the living.

(August 23, 2017 at 4:58 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: I don't know the extent of their powers, and the extent of the Night King's powers. Thusfar, it seems that the White Walkers' powers are limited to the reanimated dead.

We haven't seen anything thusfar to suggest that Bran's powers are limited to the living.

Nor anything to suggest that they extend to the non-living... so... why speculate that?!

(August 23, 2017 at 4:55 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(August 23, 2017 at 4:46 pm)Clueless Morgan Wrote: Answer to that problem: undead aerodynamics, i.e. magic

(Seriously, if you're going to have a problem with the aerodynamics of a dragon with a hole in its torso, you should also have big problems with animals that large being able to fly in the first place.  There are biological limitations to the size/weight of flying animals and those dragons definitely exceed those limits.)

Hollow bones!
Thick skin, but hollow chicken bones!

The largest flying animal ever found is Quetzalcoatlus which had a wingspan of 10-12m, unknown flying mechanics (gliding/thermal-assisted vs powered, flapping flight), and a possible weight of anywhere from 200kg to 500kg, or 400-1100 pounds.  Google it, it's body-size is itty bitty compared to its wingspan and compared to Dany's dragons!  Even if they have similar wingspans, those dragons definitely weigh more than Quetzalcoatlus, and definitely have powered flight so they would need some seriously huge wing muscles to get their bodies into the air even with hollow bones which would still weigh a pretty penny due to their size alone.  By the looks of them they have a muscle to body-weight ratio appropriate to a much smaller flying animal.

There's also the question of how the ancient atmosphere affected pterosaurs' ability to fly - it's thought they would not have the same ability in our atmosphere today.  Which raises the question, then, of whether the atmosphere in Westeros is sufficiently different from our own such that it makes flight for large reptilian animals possible.

Point is, if you're going to nitpick the aerodynamics of a wounded dragon, your problems should really have started with the biology of an adult-sized flying dragon to begin with.

(August 23, 2017 at 5:37 pm)Clueless Morgan Wrote:

(August 23, 2017 at 4:55 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Hollow bones!
Thick skin, but hollow chicken bones!

The largest flying animal ever found is Quetzalcoatlus which had a wingspan of 10-12m, unknown flying mechanics (gliding/thermal-assisted vs powered, flapping flight), and a possible weight of anywhere from 200kg to 500kg, or 400-1100 pounds.  Google it, it's body-size is itty bitty compared to its wingspan and compared to Dany's dragons!  Even if they have similar wingspans, those dragons definitely weigh more than Quetzalcoatlus, and definitely have powered flight so they would need some seriously huge wing muscles to get their bodies into the air even with hollow bones which would still weigh a pretty penny due to their size alone.  By the looks of them they have a muscle to body-weight ratio appropriate to a much smaller flying animal.

There's also the question of how the ancient atmosphere affected pterosaurs' ability to fly - it's thought they would not have the same ability in our atmosphere today.  Which raises the question, then, of whether the atmosphere in Westeros is sufficiently different from our own such that it makes flight for large reptilian animals possible.

Point is, if you're going to nitpick the aerodynamics of a wounded dragon, your problems should really have started with the biology of an adult-sized flying dragon to begin with.

Now who's the nerd?

Nitpicking... dragons exist?

We can build some pretty heavy flying machines with much smaller wing to body ratios than those dragons....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-5...tofortress
- 160,000kg?! O.o (360,000 pounds)
- plus 32,000 kg of weapons!?! (70,000 pounds)

I wouldn't have a problem with those beast being able to actually fly...
http://tabletopwhale.com/img/posts/09-29-14.gif

Taking off, however... never a vertical ascent. I like it that they sometimes just plunge off a cliff on the show... at least that may give them enough boost for the wings to start working!... or just to glide.

(August 23, 2017 at 6:05 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Now who's the nerd?

Nitpicking... dragons exist?

Um... clearly if you buy into the premise of the show then dragons exist.



This is an argument about whether they can fly.

Quote:We can build some pretty heavy flying machines with much smaller wing to body ratios than those dragons....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-5...tofortress
- 160,000kg?! O.o (360,000 pounds)
- plus 32,000 kg of weapons!?! (70,000 pounds)

I wouldn't have a problem with those beast being able to actually fly...
http://tabletopwhale.com/img/posts/09-29-14.gif

Taking off, however... never a vertical ascent. I like it that they sometimes just plunge off a cliff on the show... at least that may give them enough boost for the wings to start working!... or just to glide.

You're seriously putting up a fixed-wing plane as your evidence that dragons would be able to fly?



The problem isn't just in the weight, it's also in the biomechanics of how the wing muscles could get that weight into the air and keep it up there through flapping, since the dragons aren't gliders.

(hehehe, this is fun)