(August 29, 2017 at 10:51 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(August 29, 2017 at 10:11 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: You act like you already know the ending, and that the ending of the show will be vastly different than the books.  There might be a few different characters alive/dead, but GRRM has told the show runners all the major story points and the ending.

Yeah, that's nice. But you act like you know how this went on. There are billion dollar contracts at stake here, which we haven't seen. Who knows what kind of clauses the network has in there, in order to have influence over the plot of the show, in order to suit their massive audience - especially in case GRRM doesn't keep up with his publishing schedule, which he didn't? 

Call me cynical, but there's too much at stake and there are too many lawyers involved, for this whole thing to have been resolved by GRRM having a little chat with Benioff and Weiss, about how he wants the show to end.

Maybe GRRM planned for this ending, or another but since HBO is paying the bills and someone else is doing the writing work - it's not unthinkable, that Martin would "take some notes", regarding keeping popular characters alive, or making the attractive protagonists end up together and having Royal Babies, on the account that this is the kind of nonsense soap-opera audiences can't get enough of. And if the author did in fact form, or adjust his plans for the ending of the yet unwritten/unpublished books, based on whatever HBO's focus groups decided would be the most acceptable for the largest number of viewers - we may never know. Especially, that if the show ends the story first, in one particular way, it's unlikely that GRRM will end the books completely differently, whatever his original plans might have (or have not) been.

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I think Daenerys should marry Theon. Then, she and Misande could giggle over their boyfriends' mutilated junk.

Bolded mine.  I mean, yeah, you're being supremely cynical.  I enjoyed the season, even with its flaws, and I trust that GRRM gave enough information to D&D about the ending of the series that it'll be something satisfying - even if it's (as GRRM described) bittersweet.  It seems like you don't like a single thing about the show anymore, from your posts, why are you still watching it if it's turned into cliche fantasy trash? Unless you just enjoy hating it, which makes you even more of a cynic.

All the main things that are happening in the show are hinted at or outright predicted in the books. This is absolutely, in a main way, where the books where also headed. I'm sure many details differ, but not the overall story arc, or even specific character arcs.

And I will say again that Martin did not kill off main characters. He pulled a nifty slight of hand that made readers, and later viewers, think certain people were main characters, but it turns out they were secondary or ancillary, and their deaths opened the way, and in some cases provided motivation with their death like with Arya, for the true main characters to emerge. Bed Stark, for example, was a main character in the story of Robert's rebellion, the true end of which is where book 1 takes place. But this isn't the story of Ned and Katelyn Stark, or Robert. We just got some very fleshed out backstory for the reaplmain characters, which as the series title suggests, are from the beginning, Jon and Danny.

The main characters are, and have always been for ASoIaF; Jon Snow, Danny, Tyrion, Jamie, Cercei, Arya, Bran, Sansa, The Hound, Brianne, etc. Some hid behind other characters for a time, but all have been completely main characters in the books since the end of book 3. The show didn't give them hero armor, Martin did.

Which is fine. As annoyed as I was at impossible timelines and forced romances, there is still a great deal to love about this series.

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(August 29, 2017 at 9:33 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(August 29, 2017 at 6:51 am)Iroscato Wrote: I get the vague impression you didn't take too kindly to s7, for some reason.

I've not been particularly impressed ever since the show got ahead of the books. Too many stupid, half-baked plots of no particular consequence, convenient and/or predictable twists.....[snip]

I'm not trying to pick on you, but really? It seems that the show has cut out all the fat, and if anything, has become a bit too streamlined. Martin was the king of half baked plots that ended up being of no consequence, and the last 2 books were full of meandering plots, and predictable twists.

Face it, Martin lost control of this narrative at least 2 books ago. The current state of the story can be laid directly at his feet. His trick of pretending to kill off main characters for shock value could only last so long.

That being said, again imho, it's still a good story that I'm still looking forward to seeing the conclusion of.

(August 29, 2017 at 10:57 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Bolded mine.  I mean, yeah, you're being supremely cynical.

Yeah, well - studios and networks, who front the hundreds of millions for production have a vested interest in and a history of interfering with the creative process. How many Hollywood movies and TV shows have been ruined, because the money-people and their test-audiences decided what's the preferable story, to the one intended by the creator? I'm not sure why I should think, that GRRM is in some sort of position of power in his relationship with people, who pay him. And OBVIOUSLY nobody's going to come out and say - "Yeah, we forced the fat old fart to agree to the ending our focus groups said would sell more advertisement slots."

(August 29, 2017 at 10:57 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote:  I enjoyed the season, even with its flaws, and I trust that GRRM gave enough information to D&D about the ending of the series that it'll be something satisfying - even if it's (as GRRM described) bittersweet.  It seems like you don't like a single thing about the show anymore, from your posts, why are you still watching it if it's turned into cliche fantasy trash?  Unless you just enjoy hating it, which makes you even more of a cynic.

I started watching it, so I'll finish. There certainly are bits of the show I still enjoy, especially the cinematography, but I don't see much point in praising those, if I have to constantly turn a blind eye to dumb and inconsistent stuff. Especially, that there's a good chance, that a bit I like will turn into sh*t in the next episode.

Like - sure, it was quite "cool", when Arya went to Bravos and began training with the Faceless Men. But of course - that plot turned into an utter mess, of which most people still can't make much sense. Oh, well - never mind. Cut to Arya already in Westeros, as a fully-fledged assassin, a swordsman (even though we never saw her train with a sword, while at the House of Black and White - the Needle was in fact hidden away during her stay at the House).

It was kind of "cool", when a bunch of bad-ass characters went out on a caper beyond the Wall, in order to catch a dead guy, as evidence for the existence of the dead army (although, seriously - that plan would have made a lot more sense few years ago). But, of course, in the very next episode it all turned to sh*t, because apparently their best retreat plan involved running in the direction other than towards the Wall, then sitting around in the middle of a lake, waiting for Gendry to run all the way back to the Wall (and hoping he doesn't get caught by the zombie bears, or whatever), then for a raven to fly over 1000 miles to Dragonstone and then for Daenerys to immediately drop everything, fly the 1000+ miles back north, find them and rescue them at the last moment.

And to make matters worse - the show seems to be trying so hard to make Jon Snow look like a bad-ass, that they keep turning him into a complete and utter moron. That was the case at the beginning of the Battle of the Bastards (or perhaps now it should be "Battle of a Bastard and a Secret Targaryen, Who's Parents Were Married, Because They Loved Each Other Very, Very Much") and that was the case this time, when Jon refused to get on the dragon, choosing instead to keep fighting zombies by himself, one-by-one, while Daenerys and the rest of the sitting ducks waited to be speared by the White Walker (who, for some reason decided to aim at flying target first, rather than the one immobilized on the ground).

Who cares if the show looks good, has some cool battle-scenes, and some decent actors, when you have to put up with infantile nonsense, only meant to please teenagers and people who aren't paying attention?

You sure sound like you'd be a pleasant guy to watch with...yeesh. I guess I must be an infantile teenager then.

(August 29, 2017 at 12:37 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote: [

Like - sure, it was quite "cool", when Arya went to Bravos and began training with the Faceless Men. But of course - that plot turned into an utter mess, of which most people still can't make much sense. Oh, well - never mind. Cut to Arya already in Westeros, as a fully-fledged assassin, a swordsman (even though we never saw her train with a sword, while at the House of Black and White - the Needle was in fact hidden away during her stay at the House).

Arya... She had some "dancing" lessons from the finest swordsman in Braavos... Right there in season 1.

(August 29, 2017 at 1:20 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(August 29, 2017 at 12:37 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote: [

Like - sure, it was quite "cool", when Arya went to Bravos and began training with the Faceless Men. But of course - that plot turned into an utter mess, of which most people still can't make much sense. Oh, well - never mind. Cut to Arya already in Westeros, as a fully-fledged assassin, a swordsman (even though we never saw her train with a sword, while at the House of Black and White - the Needle was in fact hidden away during her stay at the House).

Arya... She had some "dancing" lessons from the finest swordsman in Braavos... Right there in season 1.

And we see her practicing when she's traveling with the hound as well.

Ah, the feeling of superiority yucking everyone else's yum brings.

You guys notice that the story's smartest characters stopped being so smart once the show writers needed to write their own material?

(August 29, 2017 at 11:42 am)Aroura Wrote: I'm not trying to pick on you, but really?  It seems that the show has cut out all the fat, and if anything, has become a bit too streamlined.

Season 7 - perhaps. But before that, especially in season 6 there was plenty of "fat", like the Dorne plot, or Arya's antics with the Waif in Bravos. Not to mention Jorah's rather pointless grey-scale (the actual point of which was - from what I heard - for the actor to be free for some movie he was doing at the time). And w

(August 29, 2017 at 11:42 am)Aroura Wrote:  Martin was the king of half baked plots that ended up being of no consequence, and the last 2 books were full of meandering plots, and predictable twists.

Face it,  Martin lost control of this narrative at least 2 books ago. The current state of the story can be laid directly at his feet. His trick of pretending to kill off main characters for shock value could only last so long.

Maybe. However, books are quite a ways behind the show, so I won't be b*tching about them, until upon the release of the next one it becomes clear to me, that Martin lost a grip on his story. Secondly - many of the meandering plots of the last 2 books, involving way too many characters with unpronounceable names, are fairly developed stories all of their own, even if they ultimately may become inconsequential, whereas in the show things like the Dorne plot, Littlefinger's money-lending schemes, or Daenerys' Mereen plot were barely touched upon and then abruptly ended, when it became clear, that either the writers didn't know what to do with them, or that the audience was not particularly keen on them. I mean - if the Dorne plot in the books ends in the same way it did on the show, I'll be pretty miffed.

(August 29, 2017 at 11:42 am)Aroura Wrote: That being said, again imho, it's still a good story that I'm still looking forward to seeing the conclusion of.

The strength of the story lies in the expansive world that's been set-up and the characters populating it. Lost, or Dexter were arguably "good stories", although the conclusions were underwhelming, to say the least.

(August 29, 2017 at 9:33 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(August 29, 2017 at 6:51 am)Iroscato Wrote: I get the vague impression you didn't take too kindly to s7, for some reason.

I've not been particularly impressed ever since the show got ahead of the books. Too many stupid, half-baked plots of no particular consequence, convenient and/or predictable twists, people acting out of character, or just completely moronically. Everybody wearing "plot armor", except for people the writers don't know what to do with anymore, who get brought back and killed off ASAP, in order to tie up loose ends, without having to come up with ideas, stories, or explanations. Generally - lazy writing. If there's a plot-hole, or an inconsistency, the writers seem to think that having some character openly point it out, or make a joke about it - means it's no longer a problem.

This show used to be unpredictable, at least in the sense, that you could expect any of the main characters to die, pretty much at any time. When was the last time an important person and a fan-favorite died? And with this stupid Hollywood ending, that's obviously coming up, aimed at suburban housewives - the stakes seem the lowest they've ever been.

I think most of your criticism is justified but I don't agree with what I've bolded.  It was different when they had the books to build from.  Now they have to do the foundational writing themselves, not just translate a book to movie form.  The writing is bad but I don't think it is lazy.  It is a tough job being cranked out in record time in order to satisfy our yearly expectations.  I'm too grateful to the writers for making the effort to think the faults are all on them.