The thing is, even in a museum, there will still be government funding to pay for its upkeep. On average, museums are funded by a bunch of sources, and roughly a quarter of comes from taxpayers.

http://photos.state.gov/libraries/amgov/...cially.pdf

So, yes, taxpayers will likely still have to pay a little for the upkeep of said statues. Maybe not as much as an outdoor statue on public property, but still, the problem you mentioned remains.

Are we all still pretending it's a statue enthusiast issue?  Consider all the placard enthusiasts who are appalled at how we took down all the "Whites Only" signs.

(September 12, 2017 at 4:56 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: The thing is, even in a museum, there will still be government funding to pay for its upkeep. On average, museums are funded by a bunch of sources, and roughly a quarter of comes from taxpayers.

http://photos.state.gov/libraries/amgov/...cially.pdf

So, yes, taxpayers will likely still have to pay a little for the upkeep of said statues. Maybe not as much as an outdoor statue on public property, but still, the problem you mentioned remains.

Your right, so put them on private property. Symbols of hate don't need to crowd out actual history. And those statues are NOT history, as has been pointed out a million fucking times already.

(September 12, 2017 at 2:21 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 12, 2017 at 2:01 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Feelings are very easy to dismiss when you'll never feel them yourself.

They're also an easy way to get the morally weak to give up the freedoms of all over the fear of the few.

I'm unsure how being considerate of the feelings of another indicates moral weakness.

Like it or not, for a society to cohere, you need buy-in from its members. These statues seem to work against that. Your complaints against feelings notwithstanding, it is only rational to consider that too.

(September 12, 2017 at 5:23 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Like it or not, for a society to cohere, you need buy-in from its members. These statues seem to work against that. Your complaints against feelings notwithstanding, it is only rational to consider that too.

Very good point, Thumpy. I would not argue with that.

However, there's one thing to add: Confederate memorials are only a part of the things working against people buying into society. We have a political party (that controls the White House, both houses of Congress, and even the Supreme Court) that seems hell-bent on denying minority groups access to the mainstream of society as much as they're willing to get away with, up to and including revoking the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which allowed the 15th Amendment to actually be enforced in the Deep South. The Democratic Party is kind of slow to act, and this is leading to more disillusion with the political system. And add into this the many, MANY squabbles between the many left-leaning groups looking to change things for the better (which, admittedly, has more impact on the internet than the real world, with the possible exception of radicalising the right because they use it as an excuse to be worse to match the ineffectual groups), the picture is clear: American society as it stands is Balkanized. There's no borders you can draw on a map, but the effect is much the same: lots of in-fighting within groups, people no longer seem interested in looking past their differences and finding common ground and fighting for that, and most importantly, nothing gets changed. Why, yes, that does suck.

There are loads of things that can undermine societal buy-in, including the fact that police officers can kill people for spurious reasons and suffer no legal consequences whatsoever (especially if they belong to a minority); seriously, just look at any of Min's Fucking Cops threads for case studies in this. Even if we took down all the Confederate memorials (which I have to admit would certainly not be the end of the world unless we have more alt-right jackasses converging on the sites like in Charlottesville trying to make it so), in terms of societal buy-in, it's a mere drop in the bucket. I suppose removing them from public property will make us feel better about ourselves, but I can't be sure if it will do much else.

I'm sure it won't do anything for you.

(September 12, 2017 at 6:44 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: Even if we took down all the Confederate memorials (which I have to admit would certainly not be the end of the world unless we have more alt-right jackasses converging on the sites like in Charlottesville trying to make it so), in terms of societal buy-in, it's a mere drop in the bucket. I suppose removing them from public property will make us feel better about ourselves, but I can't be sure if it will do much else.

Of course all the other racial elements play a larger role in American racism. I'd point out that it is precisely because the party in power is so decidedly against equal rights that these sorts of monuments serve as lightning rods for the frustrations of blacks in America.

The statuary is of course not the biggest issue those of us committed to equality have regarding race in America. Of course there are much bigger issues. Some people deal with those bigger issues. Others don't have quite the time for that due to circumstances beyond their control, but they can devote three hours to a march in order to show solidarity. Change what you can where you are, and all that.

The thing is, were I black, I'd find the stiff and unyielding defense of these monuments by a large proportion of Americans very discouraging not because those monuments are so bloody important, but because they're so unimportant. Racists flying in from around the country to insist that they be reminded of their place then must surely send a signal that those supporting the retention of said monuments support those who drive cars into crowds for that goal, and that will surely erode commitment. I mean, how can they expect motion on those larger issues when racists are willing to go to such drastic lengths for statues?

And I can't even think of a reply to that beyond "damn good point."

Really, in this issue, the racists fighting to the death for those monuments are their own worst enemy. History buffs like me who find the era interesting get lumped in with the extremists.

(September 12, 2017 at 8:13 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: And I can't even think of a reply to that beyond "damn good point."

Really, in this issue, the racists fighting to the death for those monuments are their own worst enemy. History buffs like me who find the era interesting get lumped in with the extremists.

Just so we're clear, I don't think of you that way at all. In the few years we've been interacting you've struck me as a decent and well-informed man, and not given over to extremism of any sort.

If something I wrote in this thread caused you to think I hold that opinion of you as an extremist, you have my sincere apologies. I assure you I do not. We simply disagree on how the topic at hand should be handled, and I'm fine with that.

(September 12, 2017 at 8:26 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 12, 2017 at 8:13 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: And I can't even think of a reply to that beyond "damn good point."

Really, in this issue, the racists fighting to the death for those monuments are their own worst enemy. History buffs like me who find the era interesting get lumped in with the extremists.

Just so we're clear, I don't think of you that way at all. In the few years we've been interacting you've struck me as a decent and well-informed man, and not given over to extremism of any sort.

If something I wrote in this thread caused you to think I hold that opinion of you, you have my sincere apologies. I assure you I do not. We simply disagree on how the topic at hand should be handled, and I'm fine with that.

Thanks, Thumpy. I do try to keep the nuances of the issue in mind, but evidently, that didn't exactly work out this time.

Personally, I'd like to write off the extremists and say "Why should  I change? They're the ones that suck." But, it seems people have made it impossible, especially the people who want to keep the statues.

I wish I could find the Archer clip where Malory says "This is why I can't have nice things?" and Sterling replies "Why? Because you shoot them?" on Youtube.