Quote:Who cares if it angers people?

That's not what I meant . Like thump. I agree that leaving them up is needlessly divisive . And offers nothing in return .

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Quote:But go ahead, tell me exactly how our accurate view of history will be enriched by removing the statue of a historical figure from public lands.

Why should he ? Why does removing them need to result in such a goal ?Or even be the intent of such a goal?

Okay, I think I'm going to have to concede this one. I've approached every angle and abstract principle that I think is relevant, and in the end, the balance seems to weigh toward removal being the better option. Putting all civil war stuff into museums where they can be taken as a collection and viewed wholistically sounds pretty darned educational. My personal interest in having something to look at in the park comes from monuments in both Korea and Canada, but none of them are controversial, at least not in this way and to this degree.

That being said, I have a general disgust toward humanity these days. If you extend free speech, people say the harshest, most fucktarded and hurtful things. That makes you want to censor, but soon as the censorship starts, it's a fucking witch hunt. And yes, I do think that left is bordering on fascism, and I do think that much good debate is lost under rhetoric. But there just doesn't seem to be anything to be done about it, and that's depressing-- maybe we've hit that population density where we all see each other as environmental pollution, rather than as decent human beings with differences of opinion, and in doing so have made ourselves the same.

Really, it does depress me-- why can't I just go to work, wave to my neighbor over the fence a couple times a week, and enjoy a vacation once a year?

(September 15, 2017 at 8:48 am)bennyboy Wrote: Okay, I think I'm going to have to concede this one.  I've approached every angle and abstract principle that I think is relevant, and in the end, the balance seems to weigh toward removal being the better option.  Putting all civil war stuff into museums where they can be taken as a collection and viewed wholistically sounds pretty darned educational.  My personal interest in having something to look at in the park comes from monuments in both Korea and Canada, but none of them are controversial, at least not in this way and to this degree.

That being said, I have a general disgust toward humanity these days.  If you extend free speech, people say the harshest, most fucktarded and hurtful things.  That makes you want to censor, but soon as the censorship starts, it's a fucking witch hunt.  And yes, I do think that left is bordering on fascism, and I do think that much good debate is lost under rhetoric.  But there just doesn't seem to be anything to be done about it, and that's depressing-- maybe we've hit that population density where we all see each other as environmental pollution, rather than as decent human beings with differences of opinion, and in doing so have made ourselves the same.

Really, it does depress me-- why can't I just go to work, wave to my neighbor over the fence a couple times a week, and enjoy a vacation once a year?

Statue enthusiasm is not a free speech issue.  The left can;t border on facism..by definition...but that's yet another far right talking point, "nu uh, you are!".  For the "american left" to border on facism it would first have to become "the american right". Don't get me wrong, it's trying...but obviously the GOP has a headstart on that one.

Seeing each other as decent human beings with differences of opinion does not require white supremacist yard arts presence.  I don't need a statue of Lee to tell me that those motherfuckers are different......and I'm sure that their mothers love them very much.

(I've known that my whole life. I've been walking amongst bigots in their natural environment since the day I was born. )

(September 15, 2017 at 8:48 am)bennyboy Wrote: Okay, I think I'm going to have to concede this one.  I've approached every angle and abstract principle that I think is relevant, and in the end, the balance seems to weigh toward removal being the better option.  Putting all civil war stuff into museums where they can be taken as a collection and viewed wholistically sounds pretty darned educational.  My personal interest in having something to look at in the park comes from monuments in both Korea and Canada, but none of them are controversial, at least not in this way and to this degree.

That being said, I have a general disgust toward humanity these days.  If you extend free speech, people say the harshest, most fucktarded and hurtful things.  That makes you want to censor, but soon as the censorship starts, it's a fucking witch hunt.  And yes, I do think that left is bordering on fascism, and I do think that much good debate is lost under rhetoric.  But there just doesn't seem to be anything to be done about it, and that's depressing-- maybe we've hit that population density where we all see each other as environmental pollution, rather than as decent human beings with differences of opinion, and in doing so have made ourselves the same.

Really, it does depress me-- why can't I just go to work, wave to my neighbor over the fence a couple times a week, and enjoy a vacation once a year?

This has nothing to do with free speech or any 'rights'...  Why is it that the people who are the fastest to cry foul about free speech inevitably bring it up in situations utterly unrelated to it? 

Quote:Really, it does depress me-- why can't I just go to work, wave to my neighbor over the fence a couple times a week, and enjoy a vacation once a year?

Oh for fucks sake, Benny, grow up. Nobody is forcing you to make an ass of yourself on an atheist forum or shake your fist in anger at the nonexistent phantom of dem librals takin yer rights.

Holy fuck, guys, learn when you've won your fight.

For clarity...I get the impression that you are characterizing this as an exercise in which you took up some (or many) minority position(s) -relative to the boards- that you thought could be relevant but were not necessarily or explicitly your own or positions with which you agreed...and after having attempted to grant them an exhaustive rational defense...have concluded that those positions are untenable, or at least relatively weak.  

Would this be accurate?

If so, do you think that a good time to have mentioned that might have been when I asked you whether or not your comments here could have been influenced by boring racists in suits?

(it's no fun if you don't kick em in the stomach when they're down  )

(September 15, 2017 at 10:01 am)Khemikal Wrote: For clarity...I get the impression that you are characterizing this as an exercise in which you took up some (or many) minority position(s) -relative to the boards- that you thought could be relevant but were not necessarily or explicitly your own or positions with which you agreed...and after having attempted to grant them an exhaustive rational defense...have concluded that those positions are untenable, or at least relatively weak.  

Would this be accurate?

I often take what I perceive to be an unpopular opinion, because in my mind a majority opinion is often about one bad day away from 1984.

I wouldn't say I was just goofing around playing Devil's advocate, though.  I believed keeping the monument was better than removing it, and made all the points I could think of to demonstrate this to be so.  However, on the balance, I think most of my objections can be remedied while still removing the statue, while the same cannot be be said of keeping it.  In short, your (I mean everyone I was debating) points were stronger than mine, or at least mattered more.

The statues are a part of history though, seems to me it's important to keep them up.

So by that reasoning we should put up statues of Hitler, Attila, and Tamerlane?

They were traitors.  Traitors in most countries get hung, they do not get statues.

(September 15, 2017 at 11:40 am)paulpablo Wrote: The statues are a part of history though, seems to me it's important to keep them up.

They're a part of the history of the Klu Klux Klan, certainly.