(October 3, 2017 at 11:15 am)Bob Kelso Wrote:

(October 3, 2017 at 10:56 am)mh.brewer Wrote: Improved mental healthcare, maybe in this case/instance, but I haven't seen that evidence yet. And improved mental healthcare is only one aspect, though it seems to be a very common denominator in mass firearm killings. . 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012...full-data/

Down load the spreadsheet.

I agree that it's only one aspect, definitely a great need for reform in other areas, but it's a much bigger aspect than people seem to think. I'm not a professional in the mental health field, I just get the pleasure of protecting those that are and working around them but from what I've seen in my area alone mental healthcare is in the shitter. Scratch that, it aspires to be in the shitter.

I know that my experience doesn't shape reality but it's like this for most of the states not just here.

Thank the 80's when a "pill can fix everything" mentality was born.

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Edit: wrong thread

(October 3, 2017 at 12:06 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote:

(October 3, 2017 at 11:52 am)Brian37 Wrote: This is the only Chicago I find to be a valid argument.

ABBA, '80s-era Chicago . . . .

Seriously, Brian, was music an instrument of torture during your childhood that you should have come to this?

You want to take this outside?

I'll be happy to step outside so you can kick my ass. 

I am not really into Chicago the band, but I don't hate their music either. I will not apologize for ABBA though. And I am also into the Ramones, Blondie, REO Speadwagon, Rush, Metallica, Manhattan Transfer, Harry Conic Jr, Paula Abdul, Pat Benatar, Micheal Franks, Candy Dulfer, RUSH....... AC/DC...... Megadeath. Electric Slide, Bee Gees. 

You can pick on whatever you want but, "NOBODY PUTS ABBA IN THE CORNER!"

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You know what I just realized? I cant use, "NOBODY PUTS ABBA IN THE CORNER!"  Because my avatar shows up in the top left hand CORNER of all my posts.

I am a hypocrite.

(October 3, 2017 at 12:09 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(October 3, 2017 at 11:16 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Of all the attacks and murders that happen each year, you pulled out a handful from the past few decades to prove that Christianity is a primary motive, equating it to Islam? Less time ago than any of that, an atheist shot up a church, and another one killed 2 (or was it 3?) Muslim kids in a parking lot. The Columbine kids were atheist and shot a girl in the face after she admitted to believing in God. The atheist Soviet Union murdered millions of religious folks less than 100 years ago. You see, I can play this game too, and if i wanted to i could scour google and find more... those are just off the top of my head. My point is, you can find instances of people from all groups using their ideology to do awful things, including Christianity. But when attacks like these happen, no one thinks "oh it was probably motivated by Christianity", because it very very seldom is. Calling it a "primary motive" for random civilian attacks now a days is inacurate and uncalled for, especially putting it side by side with Islam. Im not a fan of Bill Maher, but he talks about this fairly often. Equating the 2 IS dishonest.

I actually agree with you, mostly.  "Wrong thinking" of various types is the problem.  There is a tendency, right now, to blame terrorism on Muslims - mostly due to ISIS - which is incorrect.  Most of the acts of terrorism in the US in the past decades have been committed by white males, most of those were Christian.  But because most of the US is Christian, their religion wasn't even considered to be part of their problem - they were just insane loners.  Violent Muslims and violent Christians, though, all tend to be of a similar stripe - fundamentalists who take their Holy Book (Koran or Bible) literally.  Their ideology comes from a literal reading of their holy book.  Christians don't want to own up to the fact that for centuries, the Church made ISIS look like 8-year-olds playing "gang member when I grow up".  Christ's words "I come not to bring peace but a sword" have been throughout history, and still are a literal call to arms for many.  
   My Catholic friends don't want to think about the bad old days.  Things are better now.  They like to sing about "we are the light of the world".  I get that.
But equating the two is not dishonest, because a slavish literal following of the Bible OR the Koran leads people to slaughter unbelievers.  God orders it.  THAT's a problem.  
   Other problems?  Violence in video games.  Training young men (mostly) that killing is a game.  Violence in movies.   Did you see John Wick?  Good movie, but wow.  Huge body count because a thug stole his car and killed his dog.  Loner, unstable, angry young men without sufficient counseling or support systems.
   There are lots of issues here that need to be addressed.  And I happen to think religion tops the list.

There's really no reason to be arguing. Next time another one of these terrorist attacks happen and the killer did what he did because he thought it was what Jesus wanted him to do, then you can throw it all in my face. Until then, let's stop bringing up Christianity every single time one of these things happens and the motive had 0 to do with Christianity.

(October 3, 2017 at 2:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 3, 2017 at 12:09 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: I actually agree with you, mostly.  "Wrong thinking" of various types is the problem.  There is a tendency, right now, to blame terrorism on Muslims - mostly due to ISIS - which is incorrect.  Most of the acts of terrorism in the US in the past decades have been committed by white males, most of those were Christian.  But because most of the US is Christian, their religion wasn't even considered to be part of their problem - they were just insane loners.  Violent Muslims and violent Christians, though, all tend to be of a similar stripe - fundamentalists who take their Holy Book (Koran or Bible) literally.  Their ideology comes from a literal reading of their holy book.  Christians don't want to own up to the fact that for centuries, the Church made ISIS look like 8-year-olds playing "gang member when I grow up".  Christ's words "I come not to bring peace but a sword" have been throughout history, and still are a literal call to arms for many.  
   My Catholic friends don't want to think about the bad old days.  Things are better now.  They like to sing about "we are the light of the world".  I get that.
But equating the two is not dishonest, because a slavish literal following of the Bible OR the Koran leads people to slaughter unbelievers.  God orders it.  THAT's a problem.  
   Other problems?  Violence in video games.  Training young men (mostly) that killing is a game.  Violence in movies.   Did you see John Wick?  Good movie, but wow.  Huge body count because a thug stole his car and killed his dog.  Loner, unstable, angry young men without sufficient counseling or support systems.
   There are lots of issues here that need to be addressed.  And I happen to think religion tops the list.

There's really no reason to be arguing. Next time another one of these terrorist attacks happen and the killer did what he did because he thought it was what Jesus wanted him to do, then you can throw it all in my face. Until then, let's stop bringing up Christianity every single time one of these things happens and the motive had 0 to do with Christianity.

Just asking; do we know what the motive was yet?

(October 3, 2017 at 2:15 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(October 3, 2017 at 2:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: There's really no reason to be arguing. Next time another one of these terrorist attacks happen and the killer did what he did because he thought it was what Jesus wanted him to do, then you can throw it all in my face. Until then, let's stop bringing up Christianity every single time one of these things happens and the motive had 0 to do with Christianity.

Just asking; do we know what the motive was yet?

No. But his brother said he had no religious or political affiliation.

(October 3, 2017 at 2:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 3, 2017 at 12:09 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: I actually agree with you, mostly.  "Wrong thinking" of various types is the problem.  There is a tendency, right now, to blame terrorism on Muslims - mostly due to ISIS - which is incorrect.  Most of the acts of terrorism in the US in the past decades have been committed by white males, most of those were Christian.  But because most of the US is Christian, their religion wasn't even considered to be part of their problem - they were just insane loners.  Violent Muslims and violent Christians, though, all tend to be of a similar stripe - fundamentalists who take their Holy Book (Koran or Bible) literally.  Their ideology comes from a literal reading of their holy book.  Christians don't want to own up to the fact that for centuries, the Church made ISIS look like 8-year-olds playing "gang member when I grow up".  Christ's words "I come not to bring peace but a sword" have been throughout history, and still are a literal call to arms for many.  
   My Catholic friends don't want to think about the bad old days.  Things are better now.  They like to sing about "we are the light of the world".  I get that.
But equating the two is not dishonest, because a slavish literal following of the Bible OR the Koran leads people to slaughter unbelievers.  God orders it.  THAT's a problem.  
   Other problems?  Violence in video games.  Training young men (mostly) that killing is a game.  Violence in movies.   Did you see John Wick?  Good movie, but wow.  Huge body count because a thug stole his car and killed his dog.  Loner, unstable, angry young men without sufficient counseling or support systems.
   There are lots of issues here that need to be addressed.  And I happen to think religion tops the list.

There's really no reason to be arguing. Next time another one of these terrorist attacks happen and the killer did what he did because he thought it was what Jesus wanted him to do, then you can throw it all in my face. Until then, let's stop bringing up Christianity every single time one of these things happens and the motive had 0 to do with Christianity.

CL you have the same problem Mystic and Atlass33 have.

You have the same problem most of our species 7 billion have. You got sold a story and then when others point out the logic you falsely think we are singling you out.

I am a former Catholic myself so you cant pull that shit on me.

1. The 3 religions of Abraham all are the same God of Abraham
2. All 3 were concocted in an age of rival kings.
3. The God of Abraham as a character demands loyalty.

Nobody is singling you out anymore than when we point out the tribal logic of Islam.


Religion motivates everyone and there is no polite way to put it. It motivates you for good or bad. It motivates Jews for good or bad, and it motivates Muslims for good or bad.

"I don't do that, so don't blame me" is what we get from every religion. 

Nobody is blaming you. WE are saying religion does get used to justify harm to others. THAT is why we bring it up, and we do it with Muslims and Jews and Hindus and Buddhist too.

Christianity has been and still is used to justify being dicks to others. Not because all Christians are dicks, but because humans mistake their holy writings as being the source of our species morality.

(October 3, 2017 at 2:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 3, 2017 at 2:15 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Just asking; do we know what the motive was yet?

No. But his brother said he had no religious or political affiliation.

His brother said that, but he also indicated that they weren't terribly close -- phone calls here and there. I don't know what my siblings are really up to or what their associations outside the family might be.

There's no point in anyone speculating. The investigation is ongoing. If there is anything to be found in terms of a political, religious, or anti-religious agenda, I'm confident it will come out in time.

How is ANY of this about religion, and not about the obvious need for gun control?

Here's the problem-- when a guy is "sane," he collects enough weapons for a fucking army. Then he goes off, and he's still got the guns. So he rains down death on a crowd of civilians. And I should point out that gun control and mental health care are not exclusive-- only a moron would make those a dilemma: "Should we control weapons OR help sick people get better?"

(October 3, 2017 at 2:29 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote:

(October 3, 2017 at 2:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No. But his brother said he had no religious or political affiliation.

His brother said that, but he also indicated that they weren't terribly close -- phone calls here and there. I don't know what my siblings are really up to or what their associations outside the family might be.

There's no point in anyone speculating. The investigation is ongoing. If there is anything to be found in terms of a political, religious, or anti-religious agenda, I'm confident it will come out in time.

I could care less what his motive was. 

We had an atheist here in NC whom murdered  3 UNC Muslim students.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati.../23222317/

I am sure you don't blame me for what that atheist did, still not the point.

We still live in a COLLECTIVE climate mindset,  country, with one party and a religious right whom have held the nation hostage on the firearms issue, whom DO use religion to justify our firearm free for all.

The issue is access, not motive. Unless you take religion out of the firearm issue, you will allow any mentally ill person, any religiously based bigot, abortion doctor murderer, and even atheist, access to firearms.

NOBODY is blaming you personally, but mixing religion and weapons is what the makers and lobby have learned to use to make profits.

(October 3, 2017 at 2:37 pm)bennyboy Wrote: How is ANY of this about religion, and not about the obvious need for gun control?

Here's the problem-- when a guy is "sane," he collects enough weapons for a fucking army. Then he goes off, and he's still got the guns. So he rains down death on a crowd of civilians. And I should point out that gun control and mental health care are not exclusive-- only a moron would make those a dilemma: "Should we control weapons OR help sick people get better?"

I agree. Both mental health and gun control need worked on. It's our best chance at preventing these sorts of things.