(October 15, 2017 at 12:38 pm)Industrial Lad Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 10:40 pm)Godscreated Wrote: Evolutionist believe it's criminal to reject evolutionary science, believe me I've heard it many times on this site.

God says that one can look to nature and see that He exists. He gave His Son to redeem mankind. 
Man brought sin into this world and only because God loves us so much did He give us a way out of sin. Man is the guilty party, we continue to sin every day defying what God did for us. He didn't have to it wasn't a requirement that He save a world and it's people from themselves, love of His creation is part of our saving grace. God created a perfect world and mankind has ruined it with sin and so the burden should be on us, however God took it on Himself to bring about a way for man to escape what he did.

GC

As far as sin and hell goes, even if you ignore all the atheists (which isn't fair because there's no proof) what about people who grew up in places where Christianity is not the main religion? As far as they know they're doing right and may even be forced to participate in their religion. Do they really deserve to go to hell? God created all those people knowing he would send them to hell.

All that have heard about Christ and reject Him are atheist, and will be judged for their sin. Those who haven't heard of Christ will come under a judgement God has set up for them, it will have to do with who they are in their hearts. It's not for me to say who deserves hell, scripture tells us that all men deserve hell and the only ones that will escape are those who find themselves in God's grace through Christ. I've said this so many time I would think by now you all would understand that God doesn't send people to hell, they choose and make their hell in a place set aside for them. Understand that not all will suffer as much as others, your life here and now will determine your suffering if you reject Christ. All will suffer greatly, but it will be by each ones life.

Industrial Lad Wrote:Now if Christian god gave the world real proof he exists, by that I mean proving it to everybody, from the beginning to now, there would be no atheists and no other religions. This should be well within his power

Sure God could provide proof of His existence, but then not all would come to God in love and this is what God wants, for us to love Him as He loves us. That's why I keep saying Christianity is a relationship with God. Just saying you believe in Christ doesn't make it so, there are actions that will prove it and the NT is very clear on this. By the way God proved himself to Pharaoh yet He did not believe God was who He said He was.

Industrial Lad Wrote:Again god has refused to give proof and I don't get why this is if he actually exists. I don't believe he does. It's not reasonable to expect people to believe in something when you haven't provided proof, and it's not moral to punish them when they don't believe.

 First of all immoral man has no right saying God is not moral. Second God has warned that the rejection of His Son is on each individual and is their choice. 

It is rather simple if one wants to know God, He has asked that you come to Him through faith and He will give you proof of His existence. Now that faith means one has to admit they are sinful and desire God's forgiveness through Christ and the relationship begins. God did not make it complicated, through Jesus He has simplified things, the only thing you have to sacrifice is your pride, not your life not animals nor live by the Jewish law that is a burden, Christ took care of all that for us.

GC

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(October 13, 2017 at 11:56 pm)Astreja Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 11:08 pm)Godscreated Wrote: I didn't even read your response, we've been through this enough and I'm tired of your willful spite on this subject.

And yet you responded, generating an alert and arousing my curiosity as to what barmy thing you had said this time.  *sigh*

 I responded to let you know if hell is your choice then so be it, I can't change what you desire and glad I do not have to live with your choice.

GC

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(October 13, 2017 at 11:12 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 11:10 pm)Godscreated Wrote:  I worship the God who gave us His word so that we could have a spiritual relationship with Him, the book is all about how to enter that relationship and keep the relationship healthy.

GC

Your supposed god certainly didn't fax his word down to us, and we certainly cannot accept the word of fallible men who make claims of being divinely inspired.

Then you will receive what you ask for, you will face the God who created this vast universe through spoken word alone and you will be without excuse.

GC

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(October 17, 2017 at 4:08 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(October 17, 2017 at 3:20 am)Godscreated Wrote:  Sin has to be committed, it's not just hanging around. God doesn't define sin, sin is action contrary to who God is, this was so before creation.

What does "before creation" mean?
Does time exist without it being created?
Is god's existence contingent on the existence of time?

Or is a book written 2000 years ago too primitive to even begin to grasp these questions?... let alone even try to provide an answer.

It means God is omnipresent and that He saw what was going to happen before creation, God hasn't changed just because he created the universe and brought everything into existence. Right time was created, for us not God He is eternal, He has always existed. That old book has the answers to everything we need to know to live in a relationship with God and he will explain it to those who are interested in that relationship. Pretenders need not apply.

GC

(October 17, 2017 at 4:41 am)Godscreated Wrote: It is rather simple if one wants to know God, He has asked that you come to Him through faith and He will give you proof of His existence. Now that faith means one has to admit they are sinful and desire God's forgiveness through Christ and the relationship begins. God did not make it complicated, through Jesus He has simplified things, the only thing you have to sacrifice is your pride, not your life not animals nor live by the Jewish law that is a burden, Christ took care of all that for us.

What your "kind" fails to understand is that self-deception (aka faith) is not a trustworthy method to arrive at any sort of reliable information.
And knowing that you can deceive yourself of nearly anything, a person who is really desiring to find out how everything works will try to eliminate as many such deceptions as possible.
As children, people usually let go of the faith in Santa... That they hold on so strongly to the god deception just shows how powerfully society reinforces that deception.
Society and psychology... understand these and you understand why people believe in gods. Why there are different gods in different parts of the world, why different religions go to war. Sadly, most people can't even glimpse these two disciplines.

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(October 17, 2017 at 4:41 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(October 17, 2017 at 4:08 am)pocaracas Wrote: What does "before creation" mean?
Does time exist without it being created?
Is god's existence contingent on the existence of time?

Or is a book written 2000 years ago too primitive to even begin to grasp these questions?... let alone even try to provide an answer.

It means God is omnipresent and that He saw what was going to happen before creation, God hasn't changed just because he created the universe and brought everything into existence. Right time was created, for us not God He is eternal, He has always existed. That old book has the answers to everything we need to know to live in a relationship with God and he will explain it to those who are interested in that relationship. Pretenders need not apply.

GC

What does it mean to be eternal, in the absence of time?!
What does it mean to create something in the absence of time?!
What does it mean to create time?!
What does "always" mean in the absence of time?!

You need to be careful with the words you use. I know you're not used to think about these things, but you should try.

You are advocating that, god exists in a state where no time exists. And that, somehow, without any time, god manages to generate a region of space and time. And then you claim further that god permeates through all of the created time, knowing all the events that take place within this region it generated.
Can you understand that this raises a bunch of questions about the nature of this entity?
And the least important of those is - why the heck would that god care if any particular individual on this blue floating marble believes that it exists or not?


Bonus question for shits and giggles! If he saw what was going to happen before creation, then (within your temporal framework where things can happen without time) anything we do has been seen - it is thus fixed, and no free will really exists. Everything we do, everything we're going to do, has already been seen. It is already known. It is predetermined. Why would such a god have made things in such a way as to make me not believe in it, knowing full well that would be so?

(October 17, 2017 at 3:20 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(October 14, 2017 at 12:00 am)KevinM1 Wrote: Yeah, I'm just not ready for that kind of commitment right now, so I'm gonna swipe left....

 When will you be ready?

GC

Given how needy your god is, never.

(October 17, 2017 at 10:43 am)KevinM1 Wrote:

(October 17, 2017 at 3:20 am)Godscreated Wrote:  When will you be ready?

GC

Given how needy your god is, never.

Worst spiritual one night stand ever. Except in this case, it's not the family pet that gets boiled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bLnNqY6Yyk

(October 17, 2017 at 4:41 am)Godscreated Wrote: Then you will receive what you ask for, you will face the God who created this vast universe through spoken word alone and you will be without excuse.

Or better yet, there will be no god for me to confront with my wrath because I will simply cease to exist.

(October 17, 2017 at 4:41 am)Godscreated Wrote: I responded to let you know if hell is your choice then so be it, I can't change what you desire and glad I do not have to live with your choice.

And yet you willingly worship a demonic god that would subject me to that "choice" simply because I do not believe it exists and consider it cowardly to let Jesus die in my place.  Worse, you seek to drag other people down to your level by deliberately trying to instill fear of hell into people.

Craven, toadying beliefs like yours guarantee that I will never lower myself to become a Christian, and shall go to my grave without ever praying to your imaginary fiend, and without accepting the bogus long-weekend "sacrifice" of an equally bogus messiah wannabe.

If it were up to me, GC, every night you would awaken screaming and drenched in cold sweat from a nightmare of seeing yourself or a loved one being tortured by your "loving" god, until those nightmares utterly fucking destroyed your faith.  You disgust me.

(October 17, 2017 at 4:08 am)pocaracas Wrote: What does "before creation" mean?
Does time exist without it being created?
Is god's existence contingent on the existence of time?

Or is a book written 2000 years ago too primitive to even begin to grasp these questions?... let alone even try to provide an answer.

(October 17, 2017 at 4:41 am)Godscreated Wrote: It means God is omnipresent and that He saw what was going to happen before creation, God hasn't changed just because he created the universe and brought everything into existence. Right time was created, for us not God He is eternal, He has always existed. That old book has the answers to everything we need to know to live in a relationship with God and he will explain it to those who are interested in that relationship. Pretenders need not apply.

GC

What this means is that you don't understand the question.

(October 17, 2017 at 11:16 am)Astreja Wrote:

(October 17, 2017 at 4:41 am)Godscreated Wrote: I responded to let you know if hell is your choice then so be it, I can't change what you desire and glad I do not have to live with your choice.

And yet you willingly worship a demonic god that would subject me to that "choice" simply because I do not believe it exists and consider it cowardly to let Jesus die in my place.  Worse, you seek to drag other people down to your level by deliberately trying to instill fear of hell into people.

Craven, toadying beliefs like yours guarantee that I will never lower myself to become a Christian, and shall go to my grave without ever praying to your imaginary fiend, and without accepting the bogus long-weekend "sacrifice" of an equally bogus messiah wannabe.

If it were up to me, GC, every night you would awaken screaming and drenched in cold sweat from a nightmare of seeing yourself or a loved one being tortured by your "loving" god, until those nightmares utterly fucking destroyed your faith.  You disgust me.

I mean, depends. George Carlin if their fantasia is right is there. Pain and torment doesn't sound so bad, as long as we can have a laugh once in a while.





That one is in hell, baking pies without an oven

(October 17, 2017 at 3:20 am)Godscreated Wrote:

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(October 14, 2017 at 2:38 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: You are saying things that are inherently incombinable. And that's the entire point. It's like you are some character from 1984 trying to believe two opposite things at once. Or like you are saying something has all the proporties of a square and then say it's a circle because of all of those properties.
The bible can talk about free choice all it wants. You can claim it would be silly for him to bother with an experiment he would know the outcome for, but that is what omniscience entails.

You are trying to turn the argument back on me with what I stated, want work. I haven't said anything about believing opposites and I haven't called something one thing and then said it was something else. You are having trouble understanding God because you do not know Him.

Relax man. I'm not playing semantics here. Of course you haven't said anything about believing opposites. People usually don't notice when they hold conflicting ideas in their head. In your case; the idea that, accepting that there is an all-knowing all-powerfull creator of the universe, we can choose to do something outside of that creator's 'divine plan'. Of course you don't say anything about that. And that is why I point it out for you. That's kind of how conversation and discussion work, you know? I give you new insights to your established ideology. You do the same for me. We both strengthen or dissolve our views accordingly, ... Basic stuff.
 

Mr. Obvious Wrote:It boils down to this:
1) Omniscience => Knowing how any one of an infinite ways to create his creation would turn out for every individual ever in it.

Quote:Wrong, omniscience means God knows all things as in knowing how to create the perfect universe. You are confusing omniscience with omnipresence.

Yes. As I said. God knows all things, including how to create the perfect universe. Omnipresence does not come into play with this. All it means is that he is everywhere at all time. The reason why it is irrelevant is because he doesn't need to be everywhere to know everything that happened, happens and will happen. After all, he's already omniscient. If he doesn't know exactly what will happen without being there, he is not omniscient. (Though your weird idea that omnipresence is somehow the thing that allows for free will is something I would like you to explain in detail, because it's one jump in logic you either didn't provide the necessary steps for, or that don't exist.)
But in any case... we agree, right. God would know how to create his universe in such a way that it would be 'perfect'. And in a 'perfect' world, we would all come to accept him as our lord and savior.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:2) Omnipotence => Being able to choose any one of those infinite ways, including the best one in which everyone would come to him.

Quote:You are defining these things to fit your argument, to prove your point you have use your argument against who God is. You can't just make this stuff up and expect a learned Christian to swallow this stuff.

Omnipotence means that God has the power to create and destroy the universe at His desire. Creating something from nothing is omnipotence.

I'm just trying to be honest about what these traits would entail. You are the one saying your God has them.
Omniscience = All knowing
Omnipotence = All powerfull
So he has all of infinite possibilities on how to create a universe in his grasp, with not one being any harder for him to accomplish than another. And he knows how each of these infinite possibilities will turn out if he chooses to create the universe in that exact way. That's just what it entails.
I'm not being dishonest or intentionally deceitfull in the way I present these traits, I just use them in this point to illustrate my point. That's not some devious move on my part, it's just what relates to the point I'm making. Now you can tell me God doesn't know how any of these infinite possibilities would turn out or that he couldn't make all of the infinite possibilities. But then your God is not limitless.

Oh and: Omnipotence doesn't mean that God has the power to create and destroy the universe at his desire. That' is a part of omnipotence. An omnipotent God would have the power to create any universe whatsoever. He could create it in any which way he wanted. (And even that would only be an insignificant part of his limitless power.)

Mr. Obvious Wrote:3) The act of creation => Actively chosing whatever would happen and be chosen within a creation he has total control over due to "1" & "2"

Quote:Your statement #3 shows you know nothing about God. You want to argue against Him yet you want use the book that describes who He is. That's like trying to redefine math and never opening a math book.

Your dodging of the conclusion of statement 3 shows me a lot more...
I'm guessing you mean I "don't want to use the book that..."
Do I, by the way, need a doctorate in cryptozoology and a decade of intense studies in horned-equine-dissection to be allowed to say I have not come across any evidence for an invisible, pink unicorn? Do I need it to be able to point out that while I don't say there is no unicorn, to call it pink and invisible at the same time is a logical impossibility?
Now maybe I'm being unfair. I'm sure you read the Koran, all the hindu scriptures, went through all the african an native american tribalisms, read the book of mormon, investigated voodoo and hoodoo, went through the religions of the aboriginals, studied the greek, roman, viking, egyptian, persian, ... mythologies extensively. After all, if you want to argue against any of those, you need to be able to use the texts and such that describe those deities. If you can't, you have to just accept that whatever is written in them is true and that they are all true, don't you?
But to be fair. I was a tad harsh. I just saw you referring blindly to the bible in other posts. That is the kind of baseless claim you should avoid. But, as with any holy scripture or any scripture for that matter, if you can give a good reason as to why someone should accept it as true, you can use those bitts you've proven as true to support your claim, if it aligns.
Its just that I haven't ever seen anyone that did just that with a holy text.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:This is a square, kid. You want to explain to me where my reasoning is wrong and how it makes the circle of 'free choice'? Protip: you have to point out where its not logical, not where 'scripture says so'.

Quote:First thing I'm not a kid. Secondly you have no idea what you are talking about so your definition of who God is doesn't wash. Until you study the scriptures you are backing up. The scriptures come from God telling us who He is unless you know of a better source. See how the Bible is the only one you need to read it. What you have said is not logical because you do not know what the definition of God's attributes are and you left out omnipresent which explains why you can't possibly understand who God is.

Alright. Not kid then.
I'm not berating you, bub, for not mentioning that I didn't mention omnibenevolence, now am I?
I didn't mention omnipresence because it is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. (See above.) I could have mentioned omnibenevolence, but it makes the entire thing less orderly and you already agree that God would prefer for everyone to come to him of his or her own 'free will'. And as you already seem to be struggling, I think it wise I didn't muddy the water here.

Quote:I'm not twisting the burden of proof because i haven't tried to prove God to you, I'm telling you what I know about God because He has revealed such things to me and many other Christians. By the way if you make the claim God isn't real the burden of proof falls on you, I do not have to nor need to prove He is real I already know He is.

Yes, you don't seem to put much effort in trying to prove God. And that's okay, I don't need to watch your attempts at undertaking this Sisyphean task. But you do agree that, as you claim to know that he exists, the burden of proof is still on you, right? Wether you attempt to fullfill it or not.
And I guess it's a good thing I'm not claiming there is no God. I'm just not impressed by the assertions and logical inconsistencies you fail to back up and explain respectively. I lack faith in your claim, mainly because you can't or at least won't defend it.
Insofar all this has been, is me pointing out that your unicorn can't both be pink and invisible at the same time, if it were to exist.
You can't have a divine plan for everything by an all-powerful, all-knowing God that created our world and then have that creation act in a way he did not desire and foresee.

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(October 17, 2017 at 5:03 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(October 17, 2017 at 4:41 am)Godscreated Wrote: It is rather simple if one wants to know God, He has asked that you come to Him through faith and He will give you proof of His existence. Now that faith means one has to admit they are sinful and desire God's forgiveness through Christ and the relationship begins. God did not make it complicated, through Jesus He has simplified things, the only thing you have to sacrifice is your pride, not your life not animals nor live by the Jewish law that is a burden, Christ took care of all that for us.

What your "kind" fails to understand is that self-deception (aka faith) is not a trustworthy method to arrive at any sort of reliable information.
And knowing that you can deceive yourself of nearly anything, a person who is really desiring to find out how everything works will try to eliminate as many such deceptions as possible.

First things first, I'm not a kind I'm a human being just like you. I'm really tired of being referred to as a kind, it is just another bigoted term atheist like to use to demean Christians. Secondly I haven't deceived myself that is only your opinion which I do not regard as trustworthy. Like I said I do not deceive myself and so there are no deceptions to eliminate.

pocaracas Wrote:As children, people usually let go of the faith in Santa... That they hold on so strongly to the god deception just shows how powerfully society reinforces that deception.
Society and psychology... understand these and you understand why people believe in gods. Why there are different gods in different parts of the world, why different religions go to war. Sadly, most people can't even glimpse these two disciplines.

That's because Santa isn't real. Belief in Santa and God are not even comparable. We have proof Santa doesn't exist and you have no proof God doesn't exist, this alone shoots down your flawed argument.
What's truly sad is that you refuse to glimpse the creator and savior of the universe. I understand society, and psychology has it's good points but in many cases is severally flawed, neither have cause me to believe or disbelieve, I think clearly for myself. As I said above God will prove His existence to those who seek it, I know He has done that for me.

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(October 17, 2017 at 4:41 am)Godscreated Wrote: It means God is omnipresent and that He saw what was going to happen before creation, God hasn't changed just because he created the universe and brought everything into existence. Right time was created, for us not God He is eternal, He has always existed. That old book has the answers to everything we need to know to live in a relationship with God and he will explain it to those who are interested in that relationship. Pretenders need not apply.

GC

pocaracas Wrote:What does it mean to be eternal, in the absence of time?!
What does it mean to create something in the absence of time?!
What does it mean to create time?!
What does "always" mean in the absence of time?!

You need to be careful with the words you use. I know you're not used to think about these things, but you should try.

I think quite clearly, it is you who has no understanding of time and God, so I'll answer your questions that you thought proved I was stupid.

1) The absence of time is eternal.
3) God created time when He created our existence, man needs time for his daily routine.
2) God created time before He created anything else, so time existed before the material universe was created.
4) See #1.

pocaracas Wrote:You are advocating that, god exists in a state where no time exists. And that, somehow, without any time, god manages to generate a region of space and time. And then you claim further that god permeates through all of the created time, knowing all the events that take place within this region it generated.

I advocated no such thing, I said God is eternal and thus needs no time this is something that mortal man can not grasp because we need time. God did not generate a region in space, there was no space before He created the universe. God is eternal and thus lives in all the time, as we understand time, He is fully aware of every second of your life from beginning to end and the same goes for all that come after us. God is capable of this because he is not limited by time, He is omnipresent which means He is living in what we understand as the past, present and future continually.

pocaracas Wrote:Can you understand that this raises a bunch of questions about the nature of this entity?
And the least important of those is - why the heck would that god care if any particular individual on this blue floating marble believes that it exists or not?

The nature of God can not be fully understood by man so there are man questions we all would like to have the answer to but, God is beyond what we can comprehend. This is why God refers to himself as spirit. What you believe to be the least is the most important to God, pick up a Bible and actually read it to see what it says about who God is. It's difficult to have a discussion with someone that is ignorant of who God is even if you do not believe it's important to understand what is claimed. By the way to clearly answer your question above, God cares because He created us to love.

pocaracas Wrote:Bonus question for shits and giggles! If he saw what was going to happen before creation, then (within your temporal framework where things can happen without time) anything we do has been seen - it is thus fixed, and no free will really exists. Everything we do, everything we're going to do, has already been seen. It is already known. It is predetermined. Why would such a god have made things in such a way as to make me not believe in it, knowing full well that would be so?

It is fixed only to the One who knows, this does not mean anything was predetermined, it means that God alone knows what will happen. As far as for man nothing is fixed because we can't see pass the present moment. You seem to be the one deluding yourself by believing that foreknowledge is predestination, that isn't even close to being true. God knows your decisions, He has seen all you have chosen to do, He hasn't made you do any of it, that's why God can refer to mans thoughts as foolish. If God had predetermined your life and mine He wouldn't be able to refer to man's decisions and thoughts as foolish. Even though God knows the ones who will never believe till it's to late He still cares enough to offer salvation to them, God gave His Son for all mankind. This is a concept that is impossible for us to fully understand but nevertheless it is true, read the Bible and you can see it is so.

GC

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(October 17, 2017 at 10:43 am)KevinM1 Wrote:

(October 17, 2017 at 3:20 am)Godscreated Wrote:  When will you be ready?

GC

Given how needy your god is, never.

Sorry you feel that way, it's a choice you will regret.

GC

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(October 17, 2017 at 11:01 am)Lutrinae Wrote:

(October 17, 2017 at 4:41 am)Godscreated Wrote: Then you will receive what you ask for, you will face the God who created this vast universe through spoken word alone and you will be without excuse.

Or better yet, there will be no god for me to confront with my wrath because I will simply cease to exist.

Completely wrong.

GC

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(October 17, 2017 at 11:16 am)Astreja Wrote:

(October 17, 2017 at 4:41 am)Godscreated Wrote: I responded to let you know if hell is your choice then so be it, I can't change what you desire and glad I do not have to live with your choice.

If it were up to me, GC, every night you would awaken screaming and drenched in cold sweat from a nightmare of seeing yourself or a loved one being tortured by your "loving" god, until those nightmares utterly fucking destroyed your faith.  You disgust me.

 You are without a doubt one really sick mined person that i would not trust with a dogs life.

GC