I hardly ever entertain regret in my life; I have plenty of regrets, but I don't entertain them... I don't dwell on them... because it's pointless. In other words I'm a firm believer in not crying over spilt milk. But they do affect me to the extent that I try to make something positive come from every negative thing that happens... so that's not dwelling on them but it is minimising them in a sense...turning every regret into the seed/cause of something good.

I know that's not the point you're making, Mr Obvious, but just saying my take. I like your point though... to basically accept regret as part of the system... as something that will necessarily apply in all situations. It feels almost Buddhist what you're saying, at least loosely; if you don't have any expectations then you'll never be disappointed.

One of the things I tossed when I left religion- I wasted a ton of my life worrying about that unholy terror that is called "god" looking over my shoulder, and sweating how much time I would spend in hell. Fuck hell, and use any regrets you may have to help steer the rest of your life for the better. Go live it to the best of your abilities. That's all there is to it.

(October 18, 2017 at 9:51 pm)Hammy Wrote: Damn. I can't really read the OP unless the text size is increased. It's gonna give me serious eyestrain if I read a post of that size when the text is much smaller than normal.

Oh wait I can use the zoom function and then read it all.

Brb.

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(October 18, 2017 at 7:04 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Regret is nothing but he inevitable side-effect of making a choice. The only ones who can not regret anything, are slaves in the truest sense of the word. They are those who have absolutely no say in how their lives turn out. And while sometimes we like to be told what to do or choose or buy or try… These kinds of slaves are purely hypothetical, non-existent as our choices not to make a choice are always and foremost a choice in themselves. So forget about banning regret. You’re going to have it. And guess what? You’re going to have a quasi-infinite amount of it, if you look at it rationally. After all, for every choice we make one way, we rule out a greater deal of options. Our choices aren’t ‘Art school’ or ‘Studying Law’. They aren’t  even ‘Studying’ or ‘not studying’.  There are always more options than A and B.  So not only are you going to face regret in your life… You’re going to face what seems like an infinite amount of regret for all the paths you didn’t take, stacking up against the one path you did.

I can honestly assert that I have absolutely no regrets . . . what do you make of that?

If I'm honest, I would say my point of view would lead me to suspect you are not thinking about regrets and are not facing them. If that is the case, I don't think that's the best way to deal with them. But hey, its just my take on things.

(October 19, 2017 at 2:19 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: If I'm honest, I would say my point of view would lead me to suspect you are not thinking about regrets and are not facing them.

But what is there to regret?

Sure I've done bad things and I've missed out on illusory opportunities because the universe is deterministic.... but in both cases due to that determinism: what is there to regret when ultimately I cannot take credit for any of my own actions?

(October 19, 2017 at 4:35 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(October 19, 2017 at 2:19 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: If I'm honest, I would say my point of view would lead me to suspect you are not thinking about regrets and are not facing them.

But what is there to regret?

Sure I've done bad things and I've missed out on illusory opportunities because the universe is deterministic.... but in both cases due to that determinism: what is there to regret when ultimately I cannot take credit for any of my own actions?

While I don't believe in what I often coin 'true free will', I don't think you can't not ultimately take credit for your own actions.
Because not taking credit for my own actions would imply to me that my true self is somehow something trapped within a deterministic universe. Some soul trapped within and denied its own agency. And I don't think we are something that special. My being, I think, is a part of that deterministic universe. And as such it functions at the same level of 'determinism' and 'free will'. If we coin the 'free will' we have as an 'illusion of free will', a term I find most appropriate, then our selves are also 'illusions of selves'. And if everything about us is brought down to the level of illusion, everything we experience and choose and do and don't do and ... Then what function has this higher level we don't experience? If we feel like we make choices, even when we know that "technically we probably don't, if you want to get right down to it over a long night of conversations in the arm chairs by the hearth with a glass of brandy or two", we will still feel the pride and shame. We will feel the regret and contentment. And even if these feelings are just illusions experienced by an illusion of a self, these illusory experiences are still the experiences us illusions deal with in our illusory lives.

Man, this is really testing my knowledge of the english language. What a soup.

I could spend endless time regretting. I didn't take the bullet that killed Ho. I wasn't close enough to keep my wife from being knifed.

But when that shit starts to bug me I say "woulda, coulda, shoulda" and roll on. No time machine available to change things.

Come to think of it, if there were time machines, me and wife #2 would be at it constantly. I don't know if the space-time continuum could handle it.

(October 19, 2017 at 6:03 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: While I don't believe in what I often coin 'true free will', I don't think you can't not ultimately take credit for your own actions.

Well I absolutely do believe that it is precisely ultimately that I cannot even remotely take credit for my own actions. At all. So again... let's say I am not mistaken. Let's say I am right. Let's say I really don't have any regrets whatsoever. (I used to and it wasn't irrational in practical terms but it was illogical in formal terms) What then? What would you make of that? If I can't convince you that that is indeed the actual case in my case... then can we at least for sake of argument ask what you would conclude if I really don't have any regrets whatsoever?

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(October 19, 2017 at 6:03 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: If we coin the 'free will' we have as an 'illusion of free will'

You see... I don't even experience the illusion of it anymore. Or, it's more correct to say that I now realize that I never experienced such an illusion. I was mistaken.

I feel very much like I'm spectating myself and every thought that comes into my head just pops out of nowhere. Of course in reality those thoughts were determined by prior causes but as a matter of subjective experience I now realize that I do not and never have experienced myself being the cause of my own thoughts.

I don't believe anyone has EVER experienced such an illusion of free will either. I think they think they do. As I thought I did. They think they experience such an illusion. Or in other words... it's a delusion not an illusion. What they believe they experience they don't actually experience. It is merely that over the last few years I've come to realize that I've never had such experiences and I was deluded.

If you don't have any regrets, you probably haven't learned much from your life..I mean, unless you get everything right by accident like I do. 

You on meds for that up above, btw, Ham? If not you should be. It can take a turn out of nowhere.

(October 19, 2017 at 9:34 pm)Khemikal Wrote: You on meds for that up above, btw, Ham?  If not you should be.  It can take a turn out of nowhere.

What can? What condition are you thinking I'm showing symptoms of? And no I'm not on any meds.

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(October 19, 2017 at 9:34 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I mean, unless you get everything right by accident like I do. 

Or rather... any "mistakes" I make are complete accidents (ultimately).

BTW I don't feel any pride or sense of achievement either.

I feel gratitude and disappointment though.

(October 19, 2017 at 8:03 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(October 19, 2017 at 6:03 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: While I don't believe in what I often coin 'true free will', I don't think you can't not ultimately take credit for your own actions.

Well I absolutely do believe that it is precisely ultimately that I cannot even remotely take credit for my own actions. At all. So again... let's say I am not mistaken. Let's say I am right. Let's say I really don't have any regrets whatsoever. (I used to and it wasn't irrational in practical terms but it was illogical in formal terms) What then? What would you make of that? If I can't convince you that that is indeed the actual case in my case... then can we at least for sake of argument ask what you would conclude if I really don't have any regrets whatsoever?

Well, then you'd hypothetically be the complete slave I mentioned in my OP. I don't think you are... But that's what it would be, in my POV

Quote:

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(October 19, 2017 at 6:03 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: If we coin the 'free will' we have as an 'illusion of free will'

You see... I don't even experience the illusion of it anymore. Or, it's more correct to say that I now realize that I never experienced such an illusion. I was mistaken.

I feel very much like I'm spectating myself and every thought that comes into my head just pops out of nowhere. Of course in reality those thoughts were determined by prior causes but as a matter of subjective experience I now realize that I do not and never have experienced myself being the cause of my own thoughts.

I don't believe anyone has EVER experienced such an illusion of free will either. I think they think they do. As I thought I did. They think they experience such an illusion. Or in other words... it's a delusion not an illusion. What they believe they experience they don't actually experience. It is merely that over the last few years I've come to realize that I've never had such experiences and I was deluded.

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Well, then it sounds like you are trying to picture yourself as something seperate from your thoughts. Something like what I mentioned: a soul trapped and submissive to the determinism of the entire universe around. I would see why that would lead you to a POV like that of what I concider such a beforementioned slave.
I don't think we are different from our thoughts though. There is no 'higher' self that has to undergo a life flashing before its eyes and thoughts and experiences popping up beyond its controle. That self and the sense of powerlessness would be the true delusion.