(August 12, 2011 at 12:07 am)Godschild Wrote: The story of Ananias and Saphira had nothing to do with them wanting to keep a little of the money, Peter told them that they could have keep all they wanted, they had said they were going to give all of the money they received for the land to the church, they lied, this lie was held against them by God for their lie was against the Holy Spirit. Now the church did not take their lives God did because of the nature of their lie. Hole#2

Man, I'd love to be able to handle real estate agents in such a manner. "Oh, commission? (strikes the bastard dead) Do you think that your explanation of these stories made them sound more, or less creepy GC?

In what way does a god who kills people for lying about their fiscal situation not suggest a psychotic deity (is death the punishment for evading taxes, or fraud where you live)?

---

Honestly you've just rationalized murder on grounds of failure to pay. What can I say? You don't actually believe this do you?

(August 12, 2011 at 8:17 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(August 12, 2011 at 12:07 am)Godschild Wrote: The story of Ananias and Saphira had nothing to do with them wanting to keep a little of the money, Peter told them that they could have keep all they wanted, they had said they were going to give all of the money they received for the land to the church, they lied, this lie was held against them by God for their lie was against the Holy Spirit. Now the church did not take their lives God did because of the nature of their lie. Hole#2

Man, I'd love to be able to handle real estate agents in such a manner. "Oh, commission? (strikes the bastard dead) Do you think that your explanation of these stories made them sound more, or less creepy GC?

In what way does a god who kills people for lying about their fiscal situation not suggest a psychotic deity (is death the punishment for evading taxes, or fraud where you live)?

---

Honestly you've just rationalized murder on grounds of failure to pay. What can I say? You don't actually believe this do you?

Actually this story has a lot to do with kinship and patronage practices in the first century world. People would enter into relationships all the time that had different degrees of reciprocity. If you helped someone harvest their field you expected them to do the same. This is how members of the same community were expected to treat each other. Families or people related by patronage would give with no expectation of return, though the cultural idea was that you would naturally be inclined to respond gratefully if you were an honorable person. Outsiders, who had nothing to do with the community, could be taken advantage of (charged higher prices, lied to, etc.). What Annanias and Saphira did was try to join the community as family, expecting them to give to them freely, while they held back, which is treating them as an outsider. In the ancient world this would have been a fairly serious offense and a serious breech of honor. We think of it as a little lie, to the first century world it was actually more akin to stealing from family members to buy drugs so you can sell them to children. Basically it was really a horrible thing to do.

I say all that and yet, you have to wonder, "what the crap is God doing killing them?" Even if it was a really crappy thing to do, why the death penalty?

---

(August 9, 2011 at 11:55 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Also the only records we have of the original twelve indicate that they were itinerant teachers who were ultimately executed (except for John,

Um, excuse me Coffee but what "records" are those? What we have are stories with as much historical basis as the jesus myth in the first place.

http://www.humanreligions.info/twelve.html

Quote:Although many ancient religions such as the Gnostics understood things like the twelve disciples of Mithras to be symbolic of the stages of the waning and waxing sun throughout the year, later religions took it literally and believed in an actual 12 disciples - and some still do.

Haha! Yes, thank you Min, I forgot that I have to make certain caveats if you are on a thread. I did mention "the historical records to the best of our knowledge thing" earlier, but if you don't believe in a historical twelve disciples than the accounts of the disciples really don't mean anything do they? I think every board needs at least one good "mythic Jesus" person, because Robert Price can't do it all alone. In all seriousness though, it is nice to have someone that really knows there position well.

I've viewed that link to the Skeptics Annotated Bible, and what the commentator's of that Bible do no seem to understand is that one Bible verse can be applied to multiple contexts-for example, simply because an Old Testament verse that talks about a king was referring to a Old Testament King, that does not mean that said verse cannot, and does not, find it's fulfillment in Christ.

As a non-messianic example-take Psalm 23. Although it was written by David, thousands of years ago, many people across the globe have found comfort in those verses-which means that they weren't just dismissed as only applying to David's life.

As for the disciples wanting fame and fortune, that's an extremely weak argument, because there is NO evidence that they (apart from Judas) expected to get any out of following Jesus.

Quote:but if you don't believe in a historical twelve disciples than the accounts of the disciples really don't mean anything do they?

Did you ever notice that these "disciples" ( always twelve but the names seem to change) seem to play the part of the Greek Chorus? Their function is to say:

"Holy Shit, Lord....we can't believe you did that!"


You would think that after witnessing a few miracles these bozos would catch on but they never do. They always seem surprised when the godboy pulls off a magic trick. Magicians always have a busty assistant



to distract the crowd and go "TA-DA" when they pull off a trick.

(August 12, 2011 at 9:42 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: As a non-messianic example-take Psalm 23. Although it was written by David, thousands of years ago, many people across the globe have found comfort in those verses-which means that they weren't just dismissed as only applying to David's life.

LOL!

I suppose Moses wrote Exodus too.

Quote:Although it was written by David,

And you know this because......................................?

(August 12, 2011 at 10:30 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Although it was written by David,

And you know this because......................................?

I guess I don't know that. I am an Atheist, but one who is struggling with his disbelief. I need more resources, in terms of counter apologetics, with regards to the New Testament. I've visited various websites, like Iron Chariots, but any books would help.

So, absolutely no physical evidence, and you've read through the counter-apologetics on Iron Chariots, what's left?

(August 13, 2011 at 9:45 am)dave4shmups Wrote:

(August 12, 2011 at 10:30 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Although it was written by David,

And you know this because......................................?

I guess I don't know that. I am an Atheist, but one who is struggling with his disbelief. I need more resources, in terms of counter apologetics, with regards to the New Testament. I've visited various websites, like Iron Chariots, but any books would help.

Dave I would consider myself a hard atheist. I have no idea whether Jesus existed or not and none of us will ever know for sure. I am rather persuaded that he did in that why would NT writers make stuff up to make the story seem right. For example why invent a census that never happened to make it seem Jesus was born in Bethlehem instead of Nazareth, just invent a character and have him born right there in the first place. However even if Jesus existed that says nothing about the fantastical claims of the NT writers who probably never met Jesus and the blasphemous (to Jews) claim that he was a man god

(August 12, 2011 at 10:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Did you ever notice that these "disciples" ( always twelve but the names seem to change) seem to play the part of the Greek Chorus? Their function is to say:

"Holy Shit, Lord....we can't believe you did that!"


You would think that after witnessing a few miracles these bozos would catch on but they never do. They always seem surprised when the godboy pulls off a magic trick.