(October 25, 2017 at 5:21 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: I'm a veteran.  I can't be bothered to stand for the pledge, or any other coerced display of patriotism.  Am I disrespectful to veterans?

^^^^^^^^

Thank you for your service. And NO, you are not disrespecting other Vets, you are honoring the western concept of an open and free society. Coerced ritual is not a value of the free west. Coerced ritual are what despots and theocracies demand.

Full disclosure: I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't think that the purported symbols of our liberty and freedom are as important as the ideals themselves.

So, I don't have negative feelings when people kneel during the anthem, sit during the pledge, or (gasp, horror) even burn the flag. Because those acts are actually highlighting what freedom and liberty actually are. And I tend to have a dim view of what society deems is/is not acceptable.

(October 25, 2017 at 2:57 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 25, 2017 at 2:34 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Let's face it. It's not disrespectful even if you're not protesting.

I think it is disrespectful if you are not protesting for a particular cause. Not standing up for no other reason than just because you "can't be bothered" is disrespectful. So many people have died for this country and risked their lives for it. Meanwhile someone else can't even be bothered to stand up for 2 minutes? I see that as disrespectdul to those people and especially to those people's families who have to deal with the fear for, and absense/loss of, their loved ones.

As long as there are two particular words in the pledge (which were added in the McCarthy era), I'll never, and I've told my kids not to if that's their choice, stand for a pledge that requires me to acknowledge any gawd. Separation of church and state means exactly that.

Besides, the pledge was intended to be voluntary.

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(October 25, 2017 at 4:47 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It's really just the can't be bothered attitude. If it's a form of protest/disagreement or even a religious thing, I wouldn't take issue with it.

I can't imagine someone being too lazy to stand for the pledge but then wanting to join the military, but if someone did I'd find it disrespectful just the same. Even if they had their veteran family's support or w/e. Which would also be strange bc I can't imagine anyone supporting their kid being lazy about something.

(emphasis is mine))

I knew guys in the Army who would run (yes, run) to get inside before reveille or retreat so they wouldn't have to stand and salute. In all cases I knew of, it was pure "can't be bothered" that drove them.

(October 25, 2017 at 8:56 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote:

(October 25, 2017 at 2:57 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I think it is disrespectful if you are not protesting for a particular cause. Not standing up for no other reason than just because you "can't be bothered" is disrespectful. So many people have died for this country and risked their lives for it. Meanwhile someone else can't even be bothered to stand up for 2 minutes? I see that as disrespectdul to those people and especially to those people's families who have to deal with the fear for, and absense/loss of, their loved ones.

As long as there are two particular words in the pledge (which were added in the McCarthy era), I'll never, and I've told my kids not to if that's their choice, stand for a pledge that requires me to acknowledge any gawd. Separation of church and state means exactly that.

Besides, the pledge was intended to be voluntary.

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(October 25, 2017 at 4:47 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It's really just the can't be bothered attitude. If it's a form of protest/disagreement or even a religious thing, I wouldn't take issue with it.

I can't imagine someone being too lazy to stand for the pledge but then wanting to join the military, but if someone did I'd find it disrespectful just the same. Even if they had their veteran family's support or w/e. Which would also be strange bc I can't imagine anyone supporting their kid being lazy about something.

(emphasis is mine))

I knew guys in the Army who would run (yes, run) to get inside before reveille or retreat so they wouldn't have to stand and salute. In all cases I knew of, it was pure "can't be bothered" that drove them.

Yup. On my first ship, when I was in the Navy, I had just come off the mess decks and was headed back to the stern on the port weather deck when reveille sounded. I stopped and saluted, right next to a door. As I stood there, a guy who was just inside the door was standing there, laughing at me for getting "caught" outside. I didn't care about getting "caught" outside". He was a fucking dolt, anyway.

FWIW, I fully support an individual's right to not stand for the pledge, or take a knee for good reason. I'll even accept that certain religion's members don't stand, even if I think their religion is utter bunkum. To be honest, I'd like for them to visit other countries in the world, to get an eye-opener on what it's really like (without being an ugly American while they are at it).

(October 25, 2017 at 2:13 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

Quote:A brief video clip showing a Maryland student kicking the chair out from underneath a fellow classmate who is not standing for the Pledge of Allegiance shows what a national political debate looks like in high school form.

https://youtu.be/OL8IIxaeCoU

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/10/watch-s...llegiance/

I'm a hard core republican that has canceled my Indiana colts season tickets for myself and my customers for kneeling bs, but that's some bad parenting on the kicker's part.

(October 25, 2017 at 9:47 pm)Court Jester Wrote: I'm a hard core republican that has canceled my Indiana colts season tickets for myself and my customers for kneeling bs, but that's some bad parenting on the kicker's part.

That's because your a sensitive snowflake.

(October 25, 2017 at 2:57 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 25, 2017 at 2:34 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Let's face it. It's not disrespectful even if you're not protesting.

I think it is disrespectful if you are not protesting for a particular cause. Not standing up for no other reason than just because you "can't be bothered" is disrespectful. So many people have died for this country and risked their lives for it. Meanwhile someone else can't even be bothered to stand up for 2 minutes? I see that as disrespectdul to those people and especially to those people's families who have to deal with the fear for, and absense/loss of, their loved ones.

No one has an obligation to be respectful. Each person’s respect must be individually earned on a case by case basis according to the standard freely set by that person, not some standard imposed some other chest thumping jingoistic moron, who, even if standard of respect can be imposed, would be by far the least qualified to impose it.

(October 25, 2017 at 10:03 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

(October 25, 2017 at 9:47 pm)Court Jester Wrote: I'm a hard core republican that has canceled my Indiana colts season tickets for myself and my customers for kneeling bs, but that's some bad parenting on the kicker's part.

That's because your a sensitive snowflake.

Well the man in me is upset that his teeth are still intact so that his body can be identified.

The adult in me believes that some open discussions on acceptable behavior on differing opinions should have been had prior to the fact.

(October 25, 2017 at 3:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 25, 2017 at 3:30 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote: I assume you have no problem with Jehovah's Witnesses who don't participate in such exercises. Right?

Like i said, people have the right to stay seated, but that doesn't mean I won't find it disrespectful if their reason for doing so is simply because they can't be bothered, and isn't out of genuine protest for a particular cause. I have no idea what a JW's reason would be, since I don't know anything about them.

The Jehovah's Witnesses, as a matter of their faith, essentially reserve all their allegiance to God.

They believe one of the 10 Commandments is applicable.


Funny how that works, no ??

No one should have to pledge allegiance to a country that doesn't stand for them. And this country doesn't stand for a lot of people right now. Being expected to stand for the pledge is pure authoritarianism.

It's not surprising that authoritarians are upset by people not standing for the flag, or anthem. It's because they're easily offended as they often accuse liberals of being. In truth they are the social justice warriors they rail so hard against. They have their feelings hurt by that--and I say good. That means the protests are working. That they are more offended by someone not standing for the pledge, than they are about unarmed black men being shot by police says all we need to know: That these people SHOULD be offended at every turn. Let them be offended. They deserve it. The more they cry, the better.