My oldest two grandkids don't stand for the pledge.  If someone did this to them, I'd beat the ever loving fuck out of the kid who did it.  Probably with a baseball bat.   The oldest refuses to stand because of 'under god', and the second oldest refuses to stand because Donald Trump is our fucking President.

(October 25, 2017 at 3:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 25, 2017 at 3:06 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Which part of the pledge honors the people who died for the country exactly? It's a pledge of allegiance to the United States, it never mentions the military, veterans, war, etc. Same goes for the national anthem, which again is about the country and not the military.

Besides, this was at a school. It may be different if the pledge or anthem is said at an event honoring the troops, but if it's being said at the start of a school day, it has zero to do with anything military.

Right, it is a pledge of allegiance to this country. But it kinda flies in the face of people who sacrifice/die FOR this country when someone can't even be bothered to stand up during a pledge of allegiance to it.

Anyway, being a military wife, that's how I see it. People have the right to do what they want, but when someone doesn't stand up simply because they don't feel like it, it does hit me with a certain attitude of disrespect to those of us who are sacrificing.

Fuck the flag. It has ZERO to do with serving in any US military. I have plenty of friends who are both in the military and who have spouses in the military and unless your husband is off fighting in some war zone in another country - then what are you really sacrificing? If your husband is home every single night and isn't doing a job that actually puts his own life on the line, then he is going to a daily job and coming home like anyone else. You don't get extra sympathy from me just because he's enlisted and chooses to stay in the military. 

The vast majority of enlisted men and women do not end up with life threatening job assignments. Sure, many do - especially during war or times when we are needed overseas. However, most service men and women stay stateside in sweet jobs after the military has put them through school, for free, learning what they wanted to learn, not what the military wanted them to learn (thank your tax payers for that). After 20 years of service, they can retire as early as age 37, with full pension and benefits. Furthermore, once they retire, they can take their military education and skills out into the civilian workforce and earn even more money for another 20 or 30 years all the while still collecting full pension and benefits. How exactly is that a sacrifice? 

Wanna know who sacrifice? Those men and women who put themselves on the front lines of danger every day. ANYONE who risks dying on a daily basis due to the job that they have been hired to do. Those are the people making sacrifices. The people who are no longer with us due to the dangers of their job (whether civilian or military) have paid the ultimate price for their sacrifices. Men and women who have come back from fighting in a war, missing limbs or having psychological issues, sacrificed and they will be reminded of their sacrifice for the rest of their lives. 

The memories I have of my father involve his wheel chair, his severe speech impediment, our spending every Saturday in his room at the VA nursing home and him getting the occasional day pass so that we could take him out to see Star Trek movies or have him come to our home for holiday dinners. Those are my memories. He never talked normally and he never walked at all after I was born. Be grateful you have a loved one who comes home to you nightly.

Funny how the GOP screams about forced ritual, but when you watch the SOTU by either president, half the audience stands and the other half sits at key points of the president's speech.

The reason you DONT demand forced ritual is because we are NOT a one party state, we are not a theocracy nor are we North Korea.

It is perhaps Portugal has been under dictatorship until 1974, that I find stupid, this notion. Kids back then had to know the lyrics of the Portuguese anthem and had to recite them in nice parades often as the state demanded. these notions of respect being instilled at kids since young age scares me to no end.

Its something the US has in common with North Korea.

(October 26, 2017 at 1:45 pm)LastPoet Wrote: It is perhaps Portugal has been under dictatorship until 1974, that I find stupid, this notion. Kids back then had to know the lyrics of the Portuguese anthem and had to recite them in nice parades often as the state demanded. these notions of respect being instilled at kids since young age scares me to no end.

Its something the US has in common with North Korea.

Yep. Hyper nationalism is not a value of the west. Indoctrination with religion or politics with youth are what theocracies and one party states demand. 

The founders would be rolling over in their graves if they were alive to see the GOP garbage today.

(October 26, 2017 at 12:24 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(October 26, 2017 at 12:00 pm)wallym Wrote: I'd guess plenty of veterans would find your not standing/saluting/whatever to be disrespectful.  Your intentions may not be to disrespect them, but that wouldn't change how some would feel, I'm sure.

I think it boils down to more of a social grace?  Grace isn't quite right.  I'm not sure what the word is.  Things like take your hat for the anthem.  Shake hands when you meet someone.  Not wearing crocs to a wedding.   Arbitrary actions that are for whatever reason displays of respect.

Even though their is no logical connection between revealing the top of my head for a song, and respecting the military, it's still a thing we've settled on to mean something.

...and plenty wouldn't.

I certainly can't help it if anyone sees refusing to participate in coerced nationalistic virtue signaling to be offensive.  Quite frankly, I see no reason to kowtow to their demands.

I think the coerced nationalistic virtue signalling could also be viewed as a harmless agreed upon social norm to politely show respect.

I meet someone and they put out their hand, I know the act of holding hands and wiggling them a couple times is fucking dumb.  But that's what we came up with.  Is it so dumb that I'm going to start slapping people's hands away and calling them morons?  I don't really see a need for that.  We shake hands, and move on.

Nationalism and militarism certainly are scary'ish ideas.  On the flip side, a sense of community, and an appreciation for some who've sacrificed is another way to frame it.  I think as individuals, we can easily scale the intensity of what it means to us.  Some people just have difficulty not projecting that intensity onto others.  But that's how symbolism works.  I like the confederate flag because I grew up watching the Dukes of Hazzard.  I had a general lee car, and bedspread.  That's my relationship to that flag.  For me, I 'kowtow' to others demands, because they seem reasonable enough.   To me it's just a cool design, to them it's a history of persecution, so I go along with the idea of not displaying it all over or whatever.  The American flag goes the same way.  I don't give a shit about the military.  But I know a lot of people do, and I think that's reasonable enough.  So I play along, as it doesn't cost me anything.  I guess I could draw a line in the sand, but I just don't see what I'd be trying to gain by doing so.

That being said, I see someone like Colin Kaep doing what he's doing to protest treatment of black people in America, that seems 100% justified.  And I think in a better world, what he's doing and those who find a lot of meaning related to military would have no problem coexisting.

(October 26, 2017 at 2:46 pm)wallym Wrote: I think the coerced nationalistic virtue signalling could also be viewed as a harmless agreed upon social norm to politely show respect.

I meet someone and they put out their hand, I know the act of holding hands and wiggling them a couple times is fucking dumb.  But that's what we came up with.  Is it so dumb that I'm going to start slapping people's hands away and calling them morons?  I don't really see a need for that.  We shake hands, and move on.

You could just not shake the person's hand. Some people are germophobes and some people are simply uncomfortable with physical contact.

If I don't want to shake your hand, I'm just not going to do it.

(October 26, 2017 at 2:49 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

(October 26, 2017 at 2:46 pm)wallym Wrote: I think the coerced nationalistic virtue signalling could also be viewed as a harmless agreed upon social norm to politely show respect.

I meet someone and they put out their hand, I know the act of holding hands and wiggling them a couple times is fucking dumb.  But that's what we came up with.  Is it so dumb that I'm going to start slapping people's hands away and calling them morons?  I don't really see a need for that.  We shake hands, and move on.

You could just not shake the person's hand.  Some people are germophobes and some people are simply uncomfortable with physical contact.

If I don't want to shake your hand, I'm just not going to do it.

Yeah, if you have a reason, not shaking hands is perfectly reasonable.  If you just refuse to adopt social norms because "you're not the boss of me!", that's fine too.  But you'll have to deal with the somewhat deserved repercussions as well.

(October 26, 2017 at 2:55 pm)wallym Wrote: Yeah, if you have a reason, not shaking hands is perfectly reasonable.  If you just refuse to adopt social norms because "you're not the boss of me!", that's fine too.  But you'll have to deal with the somewhat deserved repercussions as well.

Fine by me.

I served. For what it's worth, I really don't want people standing for the pledge if they don't want to, no matter what the reason. It loses all meaning if you stand for any other reason than to express your patriotism. Standing to meet people's expectations isn't exactly noble.