(November 5, 2017 at 8:43 am)purplepurpose Wrote:

(November 5, 2017 at 8:32 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: That is a barrier of knowledge in a way , because they can't see how life could have meaning without after life that is why it seems better .
I think it is a missplacement of hatred , actually hating the people that indoctrinate through religion.
Not really ,science just gives life comfort when it comes to day to day life. It depends on you to chose what to do with that comfort. I don't see how it could be used to wipe moral ideas of religion.

If you cannot argue that promise of heaven brings good among peaceful believers, then argue by saying that the whole thing is an old fairy tale and there is no way there is a heavenly reward waiting in afterlife because of the evidence based approach science does.

It would be so disappointing to discover that some all powerful genie existed and that it was as petty and crass as you believe it to be.  Fortunately for me I think you are full of shit.

(November 5, 2017 at 7:52 am)purplepurpose Wrote: Edit:
Are atheists are too egotistical(like theists like to say) to let go of their personal comfort for the idealistic/perfect ideas of theism where everybody strive to get in heaven by doing "good deeds"? Is science is used just to guard personal earthly comfort by saying "It a scam there is no heaven".

There's nothing perfect about "the ideas of theism"..which, in and of itself is a bit of a misclassification.  There are ideas in theism, but the only idea -of- theism is that there is a personal god who intercedes in human affairs.  

Striving to do good deeds, for example, is a common human idea..but some brands of theism don't think that's what gets you into heaven anyway, and those that don't believe in heaven in the first place aren't doing good deeds to get into the great big divine after party.

Traditionally, diverging from religious claims hasn't exactly been comfortable for those that do it. Heretics and unbelievers weren't living in the lap of luxury for their lack of belief. That heaven is a scam was known long before science or christianity came along.  One of the oldest atheists of record was responding to hinduism:

Quote:There is no other world other than this;
There is no heaven and no hell;
The realm of Shiva and like regions,
are invented by stupid imposters.

-though it's difficult to believe that this, even, was the first time that someone realized it was bullshit. The earliest indication that anyone believed in an afterlife of any kind are red ochre burials..and even those seem to have been pilfered by people who didn't agree that Uncle Og needed that celt in the afterlife. The dead, they must have thought, chop less wood than the living.

(November 5, 2017 at 7:52 am)purplepurpose Wrote: Edit:
Are atheists are too egotistical(like theists like to say) to let go of their personal comfort for the idealistic/perfect ideas of theism where everybody strive to get in heaven by doing "good deeds"?

Interesting

I thought works were insufficient for getting into "heaven", that belief was enough?

Oh well, in that case, as a blood donor I've saved more lives than I can know; but since my absence of belief isn't a barrier, I've already got my ticket for the pearly gates.

(November 5, 2017 at 7:52 am)purplepurpose Wrote: Edit:
Are atheists are too egotistical(like theists like to say) to let go of their personal comfort for the idealistic/perfect ideas of theism where everybody strive to get in heaven by doing "good deeds"? Is science is used just to guard personal earthly comfort by saying "It a scam there is no heaven".

What do you mean by personal earthly comfort? If by that you mean it provides a method to differentiate reality from myth/fantasy, I would agree.

If you mean science is used to improve humans quality of life, well, that depends on the applications from what science has discovered. I can think of several applications that did not improve the quality of life or provide comfort. 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Goals_of_science

Science's stance on "heaven" etc amounts to "where the fuck is all this shit you keep banging on about?"

(November 5, 2017 at 9:07 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 5, 2017 at 7:52 am)purplepurpose Wrote: Edit:
Are atheists are too egotistical(like theists like to say) to let go of their personal comfort for the idealistic/perfect ideas of theism where everybody strive to get in heaven by doing "good deeds"? Is science is used just to guard personal earthly comfort by saying "It a scam there is no heaven".

There's nothing perfect about "the ideas of theism"..which, in and of itself is a bit of a misclassification.  There are ideas in theism, but the only idea -of- theism is that there is a personal god who intercedes in human affairs.  

Striving to do good deeds, for example, is a common human idea..but some brands of theism don't think that's what gets you into heaven anyway, and those that don't believe in heaven in the first place aren't doing good deeds to get into the great big divine after party.  

Traditionally, diverging from religious claims hasn't exactly been comfortable for those that do it.  Heretics and unbelievers weren't living in the lap of luxury for their lack of belief.   That heaven is a scam was known long before science or christianity came along.  One of the oldest atheists of record was responding to hinduism:

Quote:There is no other world other than this;
There is no heaven and no hell;
The realm of Shiva and like regions,
are invented by stupid imposters.

-though it's difficult to believe that this, even, was the first time that someone realized it was bullshit.  The earliest indication that anyone believed in an afterlife of any kind are red ochre burials..and even those seem to have been pilfered by people who didn't agree that Uncle Og needed that celt in the afterlife.  The dead, they must have thought, chop less wood than the living.

I can understand the disgust towards religion when people are compelled to accept fear of hell and submit like sinful sheep's. Guess people defend their sanity by calling the whole thing a scam. I personally can't say that there is definitely no God as I can't say that there is no aliens, I don't care simply or I wish to not care about such grand magical stuff as it's seems useless.

(November 5, 2017 at 9:38 am)purplepurpose Wrote: I can understand the disgust towards religion when people are compelled to accept fear of hell and submit like sinful sheep's. Guess people defend their sanity by calling the whole thing a scam. I personally can't say that there is definitely no God as I can't say that there is no aliens, I don't care simply or I wish to not care about such grand magical stuff as it's seems useless.

The scam is what the religious have done with the concept.

(November 5, 2017 at 9:38 am)purplepurpose Wrote: I can understand the disgust towards religion when people are compelled to accept fear of hell and submit like sinful sheep's. Guess people defend their sanity by calling the whole thing a scam.

...............?  It isn't -my- sanity that's imperiled by the scam of heaven.   I'm just calling it what it is, what it's always been...and mentioning that there have always been people who realized that.  No science required, and comfort is an irrelevance.

Quote:I personally can't say that there is definitely no God as I can't say that there is no aliens, I don't care simply or I wish to not care about such grand magical stuff as it's seems useless.

There's almost certainly been some amount of people who just never gave a shit about it as well.  The axe grabber of the late paleolithic may not have had much of an opinion on the spirit world, but he certainly had an opinion on the best use of that axe, amiright?

(November 5, 2017 at 9:44 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(November 5, 2017 at 9:38 am)purplepurpose Wrote: I can understand the disgust towards religion when people are compelled to accept fear of hell and submit like sinful sheep's. Guess people defend their sanity by calling the whole thing a scam. I personally can't say that there is definitely no God as I can't say that there is no aliens, I don't care simply or I wish to not care about such grand magical stuff as it's seems useless.

The scam is what the religious have done with the concept.

Mh.brewer for how many years you have been in religion? What was the worst part?

(November 5, 2017 at 7:52 am)purplepurpose Wrote: Edit:
Are atheists are too egotistical(like theists like to say) to let go of their personal comfort for the idealistic/perfect ideas of theism where everybody strive to get in heaven by doing "good deeds"? Is science is used just to guard personal earthly comfort by saying "It a scam there is no heaven".

Separating myself from religion in my case Christianity wasn't comfortable at all, it was a battle between what i knew within was really true and what i wanted to believe was true, I had invested my all in church life and the larger Christian community.   Most of my social times were around church activities, or social outings which i really enjoyed, and my world view was clearly filtered through my Christian belief.

As someone who no longer believes I can say that the atheistic life is easier in some ways, but harder in others for instance to get support on a common disbelief,given that's the only common factor, is a lot harder than to get support on a well documented belief.

I can't say it's a comfort to say there is no heaven other than in the context of the whole god nightmare is not true. There are advantages to not believing in a Deity though the main joy I find is not having to excruciatingly twist every bit of science through the lenses of the bible.  I can say not that I'm free to look at this really lovely world around me with new eyes, consider evolution, the age and construction of the earth through new eyes.

As for good deeds, I actually have time to do more charity now I'm not running round doing church stuff, i feel much more satisfied and happy and content now i'm not doing it for some reward, other than the satisfaction of caring.