(November 17, 2017 at 3:46 pm)mlmooney89 Wrote: So I was thinking of the same question OP kinda had but mine was more open ended and I truly am interested in the answer. I'm sure I could go look it up but it would be interesting to hear here. (<- that amuses me, sorry I digress)

What gets each denomination into their heaven? I think CL was pretty detailed in her view on Catholicism but I would like to take it a step farther. Y'all can't talk directly to god can you? Am I mixing that up with another one? That's what priests and confession and all that is for right? So in order to go to heaven do you have to talk to them or just knowing what is inside you at the last moment get you in? I read Left Behind Kids when I was younger and they were worried that last minute conversion couldn't be real but that wasn't based of Catholicism.

What about the other religions? Do you have to go to their church and become one of them first? Do you have to do certain things as building blocks to get there? If you die before you finish them does it count as effort? I don't think we really have many others of different faiths here so I might need to just google this.

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

Romans 8
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Point being that most atheists, and some Christians, look at salvation as if it's all about what people do. Really, the onus is on God to save all who are his.

Yes, there are certain things you expect to see when someone is saved, and expectations differ from one denomination to the next. For me, a simple declaration of faith is all. Others might expect a declaration of repentance, or water baptism, or whatever. But in the end, we don't save ourselves with those things. Jesus is the one who saves us. Those things are just responses to salvation.

(November 17, 2017 at 3:46 pm)mlmooney89 Wrote: So I was thinking of the same question OP kinda had but mine was more open ended and I truly am interested in the answer. I'm sure I could go look it up but it would be interesting to hear here. (<- that amuses me, sorry I digress)

What gets each denomination into their heaven? I think CL was pretty detailed in her view on Catholicism but I would like to take it a step farther. [1]Y'all can't talk directly to god can you? Am I mixing that up with another one? [2]That's what priests and confession and all that is for right? So in order to go to heaven do you have to talk to them or just knowing what is inside you at the last moment get you in? I read Left Behind Kids when I was younger and they were worried that last minute conversion couldn't be real but that wasn't based of Catholicism.

What about the other religions? Do you have to go to their church and become one of them first? Do you have to do certain things as building blocks to get there? If you die before you finish them does it count as effort? I don't think we really have many others of different faiths here so I might need to just google this.

1. Depends on what you mean. We can pray to Him. So, "talk to Him" in that sense. But obviously we don't hear back and can't have a back and forth conversation.  

2. Because of this^, a priest in the confession is meant to be a physical representation of Christ, who will talk to you. And confession is a sacrament that we believe absolves you from your sins so long as you have real remorse for them. However, if a person has remorse for a wrongdoing, it will still be forgiven, even if they don't go to confession or pray for forgiveness. So yes, a person can die in a state of grace without having gone to confession. Otherwise we'd have to say that everyone who hasn't gone to confession goes to Hell, which we don't. To me, confession is helpful because it makes the forgiveness process feel more official and because I can't have a back and forth conversation with God, so the priest is there to provide that human need for verbal affirmation and conversation.

---

(November 17, 2017 at 4:02 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 3:46 pm)mlmooney89 Wrote: So I was thinking of the same question OP kinda had but mine was more open ended and I truly am interested in the answer. I'm sure I could go look it up but it would be interesting to hear here. (<- that amuses me, sorry I digress)

What gets each denomination into their heaven? I think CL was pretty detailed in her view on Catholicism but I would like to take it a step farther. Y'all can't talk directly to god can you? Am I mixing that up with another one? That's what priests and confession and all that is for right? So in order to go to heaven do you have to talk to them or just knowing what is inside you at the last moment get you in? I read Left Behind Kids when I was younger and they were worried that last minute conversion couldn't be real but that wasn't based of Catholicism.

What about the other religions? Do you have to go to their church and become one of them first? Do you have to do certain things as building blocks to get there? If you die before you finish them does it count as effort? I don't think we really have many others of different faiths here so I might need to just google this.

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

Romans 8
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Point being that most atheists, and some Christians, look at salvation as if it's all about what people do. Really, the onus is on God to save all who are his.

Yes, there are certain things you expect to see when someone is saved, and expectations differ from one denomination to the next. For me, a simple declaration of faith is all. Others might expect a declaration of repentance, or water baptism, or whatever. But in the end, we don't save ourselves with those things. Jesus is the one who saves us. Those things are just responses to salvation.

Yep, I second AM here that expectations differ depending on denomination. 

I'm curious to know, AM, if you have a particular belief on what happens to babies who die before they are born or before they are able to declare faith?

Thank you for that insight from both of you.

(November 17, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm curious to know, AM, if you have a particular belief on what happens to babies who die before they are born or before they are able to declare faith?

This is a good question. Again I refer to the Left Behind Kids because it put Christianity in a way that I could understand it as a child but it said that anyone who was unable to know God, whether it be due to age or having never been told about him, would get taken to heaven in that time when the apocalypse happens. I do know it was written by one or two people so it doesn't mean everyone believes that so I would be interested in the answer.

(November 17, 2017 at 11:56 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I'll let Huggy and Lil Rik handle this one.

I would advise against that

(November 17, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm curious to know, AM, if you have a particular belief on what happens to babies who die before they are born or before they are able to declare faith?

I subscribe to an age of accountability doctrine, so I'd say they're all saved.

You can make an argument for such up to the age of 20. I doubt it's a specific age so much as a level of maturity. Some mentally disabled people might never reach it. The doctrine can't be stated definitively of course because some unstable people would kill children based on it (a suggestion that atheists make at times).

(November 17, 2017 at 12:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: In Catholicism we don't have anything about a loyalty/reward scheme.

With that being said, some protestant denominations believe that all you need to do to "go to Heaven" is to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and if you are not a Christian you go to Hell. They believe faith alone will get them to Heaven.

We believe it is much more involved/less simplistic than that, and we do acknowledge that a person who is Christian *may* go to Hell, and one who isn't *may not*.

Basically, it depends entirely on the state of your soul. If you are in a state of mortal sin, you go to Hell. That sounds simple enough, but the tricky part is that we have no way of knowing whether or not a person's soul is in a state of mortal sin. We can't even officially say that about Hitler, Stallin, or Mao, for example. Because in determining the state of someone's soul, every single thing about that person is taken into account. And since we can't read minds and see a person's entire life experiences, we can't make any judgements on their soul.

What? 

First of, your sect was NOT the first Christianity. It was the first biggest marketer to be successful, but they were NOT the first group of Christians.

Secondly, EVERY religion has a threat bribe motif.

Jews like to claim they don't have a hell, and depending on interpretation and sect you'd have to half to ask the individual Jew.

But the promise of eternal life is still a bribe, and even if you want to claim a hell does not exist, you are still left with the concept of "missing out" on the cosmic Studio 54 party. So that really is no different than telling a  kid that they wont get to go out for ice cream after school if they do something stupid at school.

If you want to claim a hell exists, we don't care. What we argue is the immorality of such a concept. 

It is one thing to capture and detain someone who has committed a crime, it is quite another to torture them after they are detained. 

"Hell" is not an act of containment or rehabilitation, it is a motif  of revenge for not being loyal to the leader. 

Even the old Hebrew Scriptures tell you what to do with the captured. They tell you to leave them to rot, or take their women and children as prizes in war.

POINT IS, "hell" is nothing more than our human reflection of revenge. It is not motif of fact finding or problem solving.

(November 17, 2017 at 2:14 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: Wow.  Quotes from a book that support your beliefs from a book that you believe is true without any evidence.  How novel.

mmm, Exactly ?

---

(November 17, 2017 at 2:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 2:18 pm)alpha male Wrote: Seems appropriate considering the questions asked in OP. What exactly were you expecting?    Typical lame atheist tag-team tactic.

That is exactly what he (and the OP) was expecting. 

Like we said, some folks ask people questions but aren't actually interested in their answer/in discussion.

The post was asking a question for theist's; so it's quite normal for theists to answer with reference to their own holy books.

---

(November 17, 2017 at 2:26 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 1:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't believe in other religions or other gods, but I'd still be interested in talking to a Buddhist or a Hindu, etc, about their religious beliefs in genuine discussion. I think it would be interesting to hear their views. I certainly wouldn't ask them questions just so i could mock the answers they took time to give me, and be sarcastic and condecending towards them. But that's just me I guess.

I guess growing up in a culture (as well as being raised RC) filled with christianity means that we've heard every rationalization and apology about the holes in the belief that it gets pretty old.  Also, the condescension and sarcasm goes both ways. So many believers create atheist strawmen to knock around, without even knowing the definition of the word.  But I never have to make up a ridiculous example of what a christian believes,  as so many willingly fill me in, contradicting so many others.  When all these believers with opposing stories (with all claiming a personal relationship with god) claim they have the insight on what their god wants, there is little left to go to beside condenscention and sarcasm.
I would also be interested in talking to followers of other religions, as I've had comparatively little exposure to these.  But there is nothing new to be learned about christianity, except the lengths believers will go to to convince themselves they are "right".

If you launch your sarcasm torpedoes at theists who didn't fire first; then you have an issue.
You won't find a hater for the religious institution more than me. But some religious people are good, not arrogant and not selfish; actually seekers of vengence scare me more because they see the face of the religious person they hate in every other face around them.

So torpedoes begin to fly everywhere. And suddenly I find myself falling a victim for stereotyping; or she is being blamed for what the pope did 1000 years ago.
The pattern is so obvious here.

(November 17, 2017 at 4:19 pm)mlmooney89 Wrote: Thank you for that insight from both of you.

(November 17, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm curious to know, AM, if you have a particular belief on what happens to babies who die before they are born or before they are able to declare faith?

This is a good question. Again I refer to the Left Behind Kids because it put Christianity in a way that I could understand it as a child but it said that anyone who was unable to know God, whether it be due to age or having never been told about him, would get taken to heaven in that time when the apocalypse happens. I do know it was written by one or two people so it doesn't mean everyone believes that so I would be interested in the answer.

I've never heard of the Left Behind Kids. Interesting.

---

(November 17, 2017 at 4:24 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm curious to know, AM, if you have a particular belief on what happens to babies who die before they are born or before they are able to declare faith?

I subscribe to an age of accountability doctrine, so I'd say they're all saved.

You can make an argument for such up to the age of 20. I doubt it's a specific age so much as a level of maturity. Some mentally disabled people might never reach it. The doctrine can't be stated definitively of course because some unstable people would kill children based on it (a suggestion that atheists make at times).

Got it. Thank you.

---

Would you say there is also an exception for people who have never heard of Christ? Like indigenous people, etc?

I accept the rapture doctrine, but I doubt it will play out as some books/movies have it. 

Jesus asked, When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth? This seems apparently rhetorical, i.e. he's saying there won't be much Christian faith on the earth in the end, and so I don't think the rapture will involve huge numbers of people.

People have written whole books on soteriology. I doubt I could summarize my own thoughts at this point. Seems like there are many things in Scripture that are indeterminate. Sometimes I think God is intentionally being unclear so people will puzzle over the Word and by doing so grow in wisdom. In my experience, the people who really, really know their Holy Scriptures in a profound way (meaning not just rote memorization) are very ecumenical.

---

(November 17, 2017 at 4:40 pm)alpha male Wrote: I accept the rapture doctrine, but I doubt it will play out as some books/movies have it. 

...and I think it already happened on June 12, 1757. :-)